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  1. #181
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus c-Row's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Yeah. You know how reverse racism doesn't exist? Neither does reverse sexism. Essentially, thousands upon thousands of other game out there gives you all the fill you could ever want of all male cast rosters. Pushing back against that is intrinsically good.

    If we were arguing the opposite case, and games commonly had all female cast rosters, and token men were occasionally put in as buff man candy, the opposite point could be argued. But they don't, so it can't.
    Not sure if sarcasm or not, but I don't see how doing it wrong in another way makes it any better.
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  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by c-Row View Post
    Not sure if sarcasm or not, but I don't see how doing it wrong in another way makes it any better.
    The argument in this particular case is quite simple and persuasive. In a pleasant and sensible world, there is no problem with having a decent number of male-protagonist-only games and a decent number of female-protagonist-only games and a decent number of boths and a decent number of user-defineds and a decent number of no-sex-protagonists. We are of course not in such a world, with the culture being too much male-focused. Therefore the questions we need to ask of a particular choice are:

    1) In a pleasant and sensible world, would it be bad?
    2) In the world we're in, does it contribute to the aspects of the culture that are keeping us from a pleasant and sensible world?

    An all-female cast doesn't violate 1) or 2), so you're fine. An all-male cast violates 2), which isn't necessarily a "you must deal with this!" flaw, but it's something to be concerned about.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  3. #183
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    Yeah. You know how reverse racism doesn't exist?
    What.

    So, white people using race related slurs against black people are racist, therefore black people using race related slurs against white people are completely fine?
    Jesus Christ.

  4. #184
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...be-the-default sort of touches on what I think would be the ideal:

    A male PC should not be the default case. Neither should a female PC. Every game should involve a question of "what works best in this role?".

    And as for games where you build your own PC: Variety is always appreciated. And if cost really IS the issue: Just avoid giant ant bukkake holes and the like. As I mentioned earlier: Female body armor is essentially the same as male body armor, and nobody will throw a hissy fit if the cuirass will probably pinch your protagonist's hips and give her back problems after prolonged use.

    And if it is decided that a game about building a PC should ONLY allow danglers or non-danglers? Have a reason and be prepared to give it if asked.
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  5. #185
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus c-Row's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    1) In a pleasant and sensible world, would it be bad?
    2) In the world we're in, does it contribute to the aspects of the culture that are keeping us from a pleasant and sensible world?

    An all-female cast doesn't violate 1) or 2), so you're fine. An all-male cast violates 2), which isn't necessarily a "you must deal with this!" flaw, but it's something to be concerned about.
    Ah, thanks.
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  6. #186
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    and nobody will throw a hissy fit if the cuirass will probably pinch your protagonist's hips and give her back problems after prolonged use.
    This is the internet. There will always be a hissy fit
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  7. #187
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    A male PC should not be the default case. Neither should a female PC. Every game should involve a question of "what works best in this role?".
    I thought this is obvious. It's not some sort of rocket science, just good old common sense.

    BTW, I just realised that Mike Bithell have rather badass and game related surname. BIT. HELL.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by GameCat View Post
    What.

    So, white people using race related slurs against black people are racist, therefore black people using race related slurs against white people are completely fine?
    Jesus Christ.
    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker. Nobody's ever been shot to death because a police officer had a gut distrust of white people. It's not that it's fine, insulting anybody is generally considered not fine, that's why it's an insult. But it's not the same on any meaningful level whatsoever.

  9. #189
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    please dont use pretend smart words like reverse sexism or reverse racism. its all racism or sexism. Sexism isnt prejudice towards women, its prejudice towards a gender, just like racism is prejudice towards a supposed race. (supposed because there are no races amongst humans, its just humans with skin tones and tendencies towards body structures. If anything, its different peoples, and the more international the world gets, the differences will evolve and get fucked into changing anyway)

    That being said, I get the need to balance things out. If there have been male centric works for ages, there should be an orgy of female/other centric ones, just to erase the bad aftertaste of genderblandness. Likewise racism, nationalism (although that peaked in the 40s, to be honest) and other silly prejudices. Although I think racism has gotten way more positive attention than sexism, so far.

    now THAT being said, it should still make sense due to a narrative. Not that I think capcom is just so "protective of the story", theyre just being bland.
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  10. #190
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Yeah. You know how reverse racism doesn't exist? Neither does reverse sexism.
    Do you know what I call reverse racism? Racism. There may not be the same aspects of Power and Privilege and the like, but it's still racism. Same with sexism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.
    And you speak for every person ever called a cracker, right? You might not see it as a problem... I'm guessing the victims of such abuse do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.

  11. #191
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    This is the internet. There will always be a hissy fit
    True, but in that case it will either be the hardcore military historians (and they tend to stay in their own corners of the internet) or the people who freaked out that Neverwinter Nights 2 was "full of nuns" (and nobody pays attention to them either :p).


    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    Do you know what I call reverse racism? Racism. There may not be the same aspects of Power and Privilege and the like, but it's still racism. Same with sexism.
    Ignoring the later posts in that chain, he sort of had a point

    My aunt has been involved in theatre productions for a few decades now. I don't fully understand what her job is, but it basically involves setting up the stage and lighting and all that fun crap. And she was actually involved in some of the early "All Black productions of X" deals. And she has very fond memories of that and loves telling stories about how amazing it was to be involved in a work that was breaking barriers and was about showing why equality is something that is completely achievable. It wasn't racism in the sense of discrimination. It was all about opening doors and showing people things.
    She has also been involved in some of the modern "All Black productions of X", and has less fond stories about those. While obviously not always the case, a lot of the ones she has been involved with (to her) are more "We don't want white people" (fun fact: Nobody cares because she is Chinese :p). And THAT is racism.

    That isn't to say ALL modern "All Black productions of X" are racist (or, at least, negatively racist) but intent is a big factor.
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  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    Do you know what I call reverse racism? Racism. There may not be the same aspects of Power and Privilege and the like, but it's still racism. Same with sexism.
    Without the power and privilege the concepts scarcely even exist. They're inextricably linked. I'm sure you're oppressed by the matriarchy every time a woman says all men are pigs. Or, you know. Not at all.

    It's still a dick move, but it is markedly different to saying 'all women are gold diggers', because of the power and the privilege. Saying they're both sexist in effect draws a false equivalence, which is why it's problematic.

    But I'm gonna duck out here because my enjoyment of this thread is dwindling and frankly I hate all these discussions, they stress me out, make me angry, and I only contribute to them because I feel I must. Get the last word in if it matters to you, the confrontational winner/loser last word war of attrition structure to these threads and internet discussions as a whole only gets in the way of actually talking about things anyway.

  13. #193
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    But I'm gonna duck out here because my enjoyment of this thread is dwindling and frankly I hate all these discussions, they stress me out, make me angry, and I only contribute to them because I feel I must. Get the last word in if it matters to you, the confrontational winner/loser last word war of attrition structure to these threads and internet discussions as a whole only gets in the way of actually talking about things anyway.
    Nice cop out. Bravo.

    ETA: Racism/Sexism can and does exist without the power and privilege of groups... People are not (always) groups, they are individuals.
    Last edited by Unaco; 20-02-2014 at 03:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.

  14. #194
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    True, but in that case it will either be the hardcore military historians (and they tend to stay in their own corners of the internet) or the people who freaked out that Neverwinter Nights 2 was "full of nuns" (and nobody pays attention to them either :p).
    There where nuns?
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  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    Nice cop out. Bravo.
    See? You can't even disengage from something that hurts you without being insulted for it. Bravo, hot shot. I'm really impressed at your internet muscles. Oh, sorry. Took your important last word from you. I'll duck out properly this time, so you can win for real.

    Oh, ow, he got me, such impeccable logic, gonna bleed out, leave me behind, ow, etc.

  16. #196
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    See? You can't even disengage from something that hurts you without being insulted for it.
    And I can't seem to engage with a topic that hurts me without being mocked by you. Stop posting or keep on being a snide prick, I don't care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.

  17. #197
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    There where nuns?
    Maybe? I dunno

    But people freaked out because there weren't enough chainmail bikinis and most people wore sensible (by the standards of the genre...) clothing.
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  18. #198
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Again, why is it so hard not to get swept up in these discussions?
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...be-the-default sort of touches on what I think would be the ideal:

    A male PC should not be the default case. Neither should a female PC. Every game should involve a question of "what works best in this role?".
    I think this is the question's that often overlooked. Latching onto a particular game is pointless, because when you truly start thinking about the decision to make a character male or female, in a lot of cases there is no rationale behind it. Sometimes the author/artist had a picture in their mind's eye, sometimes it fit the plot better, sometimes it's to provide balance to the rest of the cast, whatever. You won't find an instance where the author straight up says (or thinks) "It's because female characters suck and I don't want them." The choice to pick the gender of the characters is entirely the author's.

    The question that needs to be asked is why, as it so often feels, the male gender is considered the "default". It really does feel as though when gender is not important to the character, they're slotted as males in a lot of situations. We should try to look into why that is, not just in games but also in movies and books, instead of picking at specific instances. This is a societal issue, not isolated events, and so it should be treated as such.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    Again, why is it so hard not to get swept up in these discussions?
    Because the setup we have across the internet is that if you say your piece and go, you lose. If you don't get the last word, you lose. Which means anybody who actually cares about the argument is incentivised to dig in as hard as they can. Compromise is cop out. Retreat is cop out. Discussion is defeat. Fight to the bloody end or you lose.

    I hasten to add, I'm not targetting Unaco here, despite our disagreement above. It's standard, and it's unhealthy.

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