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  1. #41
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    Like who?

    I agree it's an issue that needs debating, but to give these cretins the slightest bit of credit is indefensible. None of them are doing it because they care about corruption in videogames journalism or have the least understanding of what it implies. They're doing it because a woman was mean to them on the internet, she betrayed a moment of weakness by (apparently) making some stupid decisions about her private life versus her professional life, and they saw an opportunity to take revenge. That's it. Yeah, it seems like Zoe Quinn does have problems, and it is in no way a good thing that she let them spill over into how she deals with the public, though in all honesty 1) it's not as if she ever pretended she didn't have issues - she made a game about some of them! - and 2) none of it even begins to deserve this kind of response. Saying "omg game devs in bed with the media do you see, do you see", however well-intentioned, however justified - and it is, in some ways, a justified response - is still pretty much playing straight into their hands.

    I understand there's really no putting the cat back in the bag, but my God, I wish someone could in this case. There is no merit in what these people are doing. None. However much sense some of their drivel might seem to make. And saying "Well, now we need to have a serious discussion about this" seems to be implying, to me, that there is.
    I'm not giving any cretins any credit for anything. I've thought this way for a while. Go on twitter and you'll have conversations between developers of games and the people who cover those games happening.

    Here are some of the people who I would question the merits of their opinion based on their actions with developers (and companies)

    -Patrick Kelpik and Adam Sessler both have a friendly "out of office" relationship with Zoe (not to bring her up again but she's a good example). If either of those guys told me I should play her latest game, or in Sessler's case tell me I should support Zoe's Patreon account to help make a difference I immediately wonder if they're saying it because they think it or because Zoe is a buddy. Nathon Grayson also falls into this category though I doubt the editors over at Kotaku will let him come within 100ft of mentioning anything about any of her future endeavours on their site.

    -Lauren Wainwright and everyone else involved in tweeting for PS3s.

    -Guys like the Yogscast and other youtubers who are taking cash for reviews or for showcasing games. This is a newer medium than traditional reviews, but it could've been better than how it's going, which is just "we'll give you money if you play our game for twenty minutes on youtube".

    As a reference of media who did it right, the Giant Bomb guys came out and said they wouldn't review or give opinions on Bastion because they had too good of a friendly relationship with members of staff there and they deemed it inappropriate to mix their professional opinion of the game because they're buddies. Having said that though, those guys have a good personal relationship with guys like Dave Lang and John Vignocchi so if the next season of Killer Instinct and the next Disney Infinity game get 5/5 A++++ ratings I'd wonder how much of it is from the guys friendship and how much is true. I've faith enough in guys like Jeff not to do that though.

    But all of this has nothing to do with the guys who brought out "five guys" and started posting it all over the place. It has everything to do with the current trend that the two sides of the industry are getting closer and tightly knit together. I'm sure this is happening in other industries too like movies, music and tv but I don't pay attention to those.
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  2. #42
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    I agree it's an issue that needs debating, but to give these cretins the slightest bit of credit is indefensible. None of them are doing it because they care about corruption in videogames journalism or have the least understanding of what it implies.
    Indeed. They’re often even hurling abuse while accusing her of faking the abuse in the same line. Apparently she’s constructed an elaborate global deception with legions of false accounts, and only a brave few… thousands, can stand up to her tyranny.

    There’s a bit of a crossover between conspiracy theorists and sexists it seems. Makes sense, both involve elevating yourself above others.

  3. #43
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Did she actually do that?
    Possibly. Total Biscuit seems to think so. So many bits and pieces are missing from the puzzle (occasionally deleted by either 'side' in this conflict) that it's hard to say what did or didn't happen at this point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    None of them are doing it because they care about corruption in videogames journalism or have the least understanding of what it implies. They're doing it because a woman was mean to them on the internet, she betrayed a moment of weakness by (apparently) making some stupid decisions about her private life versus her professional life, and they saw an opportunity to take revenge. That's it.
    Again, might I remind you that this very forum has engaged in the exact same behaviour of condemnation back when it suited their interests. Do most of these people really give a shit about 'games journalism'? Christ no, games journalism has been shit for ages. No doubt plenty of people are out for character assassination. And yet we're more than happy to indulge in the same goddamn hatred if, for example, that person was a misogynist or something like that. Again I refer you to the Josh Mattingly case, where a man who was depressed and suffering alcohol abuse sent inappropriate comments to a female game dev through a private message. He was attacked even on this very forum for that, and when I pointed out that he was depressed and an alcoholic, which might explain some of his behaviour (but not excuse it), I was shouted down that it was irrelevant. Therefore, why should it matter if Quinn was depressed?

    My point isn't that Quinn deserves it nor is it that anybody has the 'right' side here - I think Quinn is being manipulative and in damage control, given that she's been exposed indulging in behaviour totally at odds with her alleged moral principles, but honestly I don't care, because games journalism is a pathetic laughing stock by this point. But this high-horse approach of "Oh how dare they attack this person for their private affairs!" is getting mighty old when the same group of people will gleefully attack somebody else provided they believe they have just cause to do so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    As for the DMCA stuff. I'd fucking censor people posting videos based on an ex of mine slandering me. Or frankly anything to do with my private life, because yknow boundaries, they exist.
    DMCA has absolutely nothing to do with allegations of slander and everything to do with copyright. Quinn never had a problem with TB EDIT tweeting about Depression Quest (not using footage, apologies) before TB questioned this whole incident.
    Last edited by soldant; 22-08-2014 at 12:13 PM.
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  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Would this be the Mattingly thing?
    http://kotaku.com/reporter-apologize...ale-1505393796

    I seem to remember people acknowledging being depressed or drunk as a thing. However they are different cases. A post break up harrang from a jilted ex and a journalist sexually harassing a developer while asking for professional information. They're really not equatable.

  5. #45
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    Would this be the Mattingly thing?
    http://kotaku.com/reporter-apologize...ale-1505393796

    I seem to remember people acknowledging being depressed or drunk as a thing. However they are different cases. A post break up harrang from a jilted ex and a journalist sexually harassing a developer while asking for professional information. They're really not equatable.
    That's not what people are trying to compare.

    He harassed someone. She cheated on someone. The means of how these two pieces of information came out to be aren't the points of discussion. It's what they did. Both of them claim depression and in the case of Josh, as Soldant points out even on this very forum, people called for his blood over a private matter between him and someone else.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Again, might I remind you that this very forum has engaged in the exact same behaviour of condemnation back when it suited their interests. Do most of these people really give a shit about 'games journalism'? Christ no, games journalism has been shit for ages. No doubt plenty of people are out for character assassination. And yet we're more than happy to indulge in the same goddamn hatred if, for example, that person was a misogynist or something like that. Again I refer you to the Josh Mattingly case, where a man who was depressed and suffering alcohol abuse sent inappropriate comments to a female game dev through a private message. He was attacked even on this very forum for that, and when I pointed out that he was depressed and an alcoholic, which might explain some of his behaviour (but not excuse it), I was shouted down that it was irrelevant. Therefore, why should it matter if Quinn was depressed?
    You do have a point, but those two incidents are really not the same. It isn't that Zoe Quinn shouldn't be criticised for what she did - I for one haven't said that - but I'm seeing more evidence that the bulk of the problem lies with her being repeatedly attacked over Depression Quest and angrily lashing out (understandably so) at her "critics". Should she have done that? You can argue no, she shouldn't - but it's very different, to my mind, from one random games journo slipping up and saying something he shouldn't have under the influence. Sure, Zoe Quinn did something stupid, it's perfectly justified to at least point that out, and there are people who defend her a little too readily, but what she had to put up with and the wider issues that abuse relates to doesn't really compare with what Mattingly was going through. I don't mean to dismiss him entirely! He certainly didn't deserve some of the abuse he got either, no argument there! But it's not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    I'm not giving any cretins any credit for anything. I've thought this way for a while. Go on twitter and you'll have conversations between developers of games and the people who cover those games happening.


    I don't consider any of what you cite any great cause for alarm, and I think by over-stating the problem you run the risk of making it sound like these people actually have a point, or are worth listening to for even a second.

    Sorry if this isn't really relevant, but I thought it might provide some context... I used to occasionally write reviews for Twitchfilm, where the founder, Todd Brown, is now a partner (I think) at the production company behind The Raid. (He has an executive producer credit on the film, IIRC.) One of the reviewers for Twitch is a poster artist who came up with the original cover art. Todd himself never wrote a review of the film for the site, for obvious reasons, but I did, and I think maybe four or five other people did (for a while Twitch would do multiple reviews of certain films when they went round the festival circuit).

    I was never paid a salary for Twitch - people generally weren't - but I did get compensation, free tickets, travel and accommodation comped, stuff like that. Did any of that ever bother me? Only very slightly. I talked to directors at festivals, got buddy-buddy with them on occasion, just a bit, and gave their films enthusiastic reviews if I liked them. If I didn't, then I didn't. Had anyone ever directly said "Bribes 4 good reviews plz" to me I'd have turned them down. People were free to think what they wanted, but that was all there was to it for me.
    Last edited by Eight Rooks; 22-08-2014 at 12:41 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    He harassed someone. She cheated on someone. The means of how these two pieces of information came out to be aren't the points of discussion. It's what they did. Both of them claim depression and in the case of Josh, as Soldant points out even on this very forum, people called for his blood over a private matter between him and someone else.
    The difference is that harassment (let alone sexual harassment) of one person by another is considered a matter for social engagement by all civilised peoples. Infidelity, in contrast, is considered a matter for social engagement only by the Taliban and other similarly uncivilised peoples like MRAs.

    And by soldant, apparently.
    Last edited by Lethe; 22-08-2014 at 01:07 PM.

  8. #48
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    I seem to remember people acknowledging being depressed or drunk as a thing. However they are different cases. A post break up harrang from a jilted ex and a journalist sexually harassing a developer while asking for professional information. They're really not equatable.
    Yeah, see, this is my point - you're happy to justify people ripping into Mattingly because he made inappropriate comments to a female game dev, and he underwent a trial by internet/media and harassment to the point of quitting his job over it, even though he had problems too. Nothing in my post says he should be absolved of any wrongdoing - what he did was wrong. And nobody was interested that he was depressed or drunk - everyone focused on what he had done, and the accusation was taken at face value.

    Yet Quinn has also done some highly questionable and reprehensible things (and no, it isn't just sleeping with her boss and games journalists that raise a few eyebrows), and when the internet rallies against it, you're standing there saying it's wrong. The fact that she didn't do what Mattingly did is entirely irrelevant, as Jesus_Phish correctly identified. The point is that people are complaining that Quinn has issues and what she did was in private and thus doesn't deserve any backlash or attention. Well, Mattingly had issues and his actions took place in private too, and his actions were highly questionable and reprehensible. From where I'm sitting, the exact same rules are at play, except this time you don't want to acknowledge it because it doesn't align with your beliefs.

    If you were happy to attack Mattingly (and I don't recall if you were in the RPS thread on it) or were content with attacks being held on him, then Quinn is really no different.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks
    but what she had to put up with and the wider issues that abuse relates to doesn't really compare with what Mattingly was going through. I don't mean to dismiss him entirely! He certainly didn't deserve some of the abuse he got either, no argument there! But it's not the same.
    The charges against Quinn are more than lashing out at people who didn't like Depression Quest - you can go read about them elsewhere but they include capitalising on Robin William's death for publicity, and sabotaging The Fine Young Capitalists' Rebel Game Jam. She's also accused of fabricating claims that she was doxx'd for sympathy, but I don't know if there's much merit for that. But as for Mattingly - neither you nor I know what kind of state he was in. Saying Person X's depression isn't as bad or serious as Person Y's because of Z is ignorant. If this was Tumblr, you'd be shot. Fortunately it isn't.
    Last edited by soldant; 22-08-2014 at 12:32 PM.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    Sadly the cat in the bag isn't games and journalism, it's just the internet and social media generally. People's private lives have become increasingly publicly scrutinised and that's been really creepily normalised over the last decade.
    Yeah, this. It doesn't seem like a serious discussion of journalism, it just seems like people being fucking twats on the internet. The invasion of privacy is awful, the conscious targeting of abuse at someone who is clearly vulnerable is just... I'm glad that they lock people up for that shit.

    Will definitely check out Depression Quest now, it sounds really interesting.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Saying Person X's depression isn't as bad or serious as Person Y's because of Z is ignorant. If this was Tumblr, you'd be shot. Fortunately it isn't.
    Oh, dear, you're going there, are you? I could just as easily say they'd be after you for daring to suggest that one guy's alcoholism and personal tragedy is in any way comparable to a woman having to live "lol did u see thos fotos bitch is like 4/10 at best" in public day after day.

  11. #51
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    Oh, dear, you're going there, are you? I could just as easily say they'd be after you for daring to suggest that one guy's alcoholism and personal tragedy is in any way comparable to a woman having to live "lol did u see thos fotos bitch is like 4/10 at best" in public day after day.
    You are aware though that what's happening to one person, no matter how serious, could be totally irrelevant to someone lost in their own troubles, right? I don't care if Quinn is besieged on all sides if my family have just died, for example - it's terrible for Quinn but irrelevant to me.

    Also Mattingly has been called a horrible misogynist and plenty of other attacks over what he did, and he also resigned, and his reputation is fucked, all of which happened after the private conversation was exposed.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  12. #52
    Lesser Hivemind Node frightlever's Avatar
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    edit: disengaging from shitstorm...

  13. #53
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frightlever View Post
    edit: disengaging from shitstorm...
    Probably wise. An argument needs at least 2 sides, sadly 2 sides is often as far as most discussions get.
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  14. #54
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Yeah, see, this is my point - you're happy to justify people ripping into Mattingly because he made inappropriate comments to a female game dev, and he underwent a trial by internet/media and harassment to the point of quitting his job over it, even though he had problems too. Nothing in my post says he should be absolved of any wrongdoing - what he did was wrong. And nobody was interested that he was depressed or drunk - everyone focused on what he had done, and the accusation was taken at face value.

    Yet Quinn has also done some highly questionable and reprehensible things (and no, it isn't just sleeping with her boss and games journalists that raise a few eyebrows), and when the internet rallies against it, you're standing there saying it's wrong. The fact that she didn't do what Mattingly did is entirely irrelevant, as Jesus_Phish correctly identified. The point is that people are complaining that Quinn has issues and what she did was in private and thus doesn't deserve any backlash or attention. Well, Mattingly had issues and his actions took place in private too, and his actions were highly questionable and reprehensible. From where I'm sitting, the exact same rules are at play, except this time you don't want to acknowledge it because it doesn't align with your beliefs.

    If you were happy to attack Mattingly (and I don't recall if you were in the RPS thread on it) or were content with attacks being held on him, then Quinn is really no different.
    I'm not happy ripping into or abusively attacking people. Especially people with depression.

    But as Lethe said, I am happy to criticise someone for sexual harassment and consider it a duty of sorts to call people on it, then once they apologise and realise they've done wrong you move on. I'm happy for that to be over as said person will have learnt their lesson. Or court and jail depending on the kind of harassment. So yeah the Mattingly stuff did get out of hand, also depression or alcohol does not remove any guilt an individual might have.

    People sleeping together and having affairs. None of my fucking business. Especially with most of this abuse throwing words like whore around, not from anyone here particularly. Also really if it all comes from the one jilted party.

  15. #55
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frightlever View Post
    edit: disengaging from shitstorm...
    Take me with you.

  16. #56
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    That's not the vibe I ahve been getting from that post at all. It's more like this:
    However. It is entirely possible that she did not issue this claim and that it's someone impersonating her. It's easier than it should be to do this on Youtube because Youtubes system is terrible. That's always worth bearing in mind, even though the evidence I've seen up to this point seems to indicate that she is responsible. Again, you can't see very far in a shitstorm.

  17. #57
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    So yeah the Mattingly stuff did get out of hand, also depression or alcohol does not remove any guilt an individual might have.
    Nobody said it did, yet in Quinn's case it seems to be at the root of any absolution if she did do something wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    People sleeping together and having affairs. None of my fucking business. Especially with most of this abuse throwing words like whore around, not from anyone here particularly. Also really if it all comes from the one jilted party.
    But you know very well that the issue isn't that she had an affair - it's the people she had an affair with, as well as the accusations of abusing the DMCA system and allegedly sabotaging Rebel Game Jam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    That's not the vibe I ahve been getting from that post at all. It's more like this:
    Um, the evidence I've seen up to this point seems to indicate that she is responsible. Your quote.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    You are aware though that what's happening to one person, no matter how serious, could be totally irrelevant to someone lost in their own troubles, right? I don't care if Quinn is besieged on all sides if my family have just died, for example - it's terrible for Quinn but irrelevant to me.

    Also Mattingly has been called a horrible misogynist and plenty of other attacks over what he did, and he also resigned, and his reputation is fucked, all of which happened after the private conversation was exposed.
    Again, I would agree with you that the response to Mattingly got way out of hand, and from the evidence we were privy to he didn't remotely deserve that either. And I really don't like to play one-upmanship with stuff like this. But I'm sorry, going by that original compilation of the people Quinn got into a shouting match with (and other things, maybe?) I guess - put very crudely, I stress - I do think there's something about her case that's more important, however badly she herself fucked up. I do think it relates to something about gaming culture and the internet in general (not this corruption in games journalism nonsense) that's far nastier and darker and not just "lolz, internet, what u gonna do?" or even "Christ, leave that poor person alone"... about which Something Will Have To Be Done at some point, probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    That's not the vibe I ahve been getting from that post at all. It's more like this:
    Heh, yes. I was briefly amused by one of these guys quoting that when it seems pretty obvious that while TB doesn't think much of Quinn, he's clearly not particularly impressed by anyone involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by frightlever View Post
    edit: disengaging from shitstorm...
    Yeah, I just went through a bit of a "what am I doing?" myself (sitting in a doctor's waiting room, no less); I should probably step away too. I'm probably always going to disagree on some aspects of this, but hopefully I haven't said anything too stupid in the process.

  19. #59
    Lesser Hivemind Node frightlever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    Take me with you.
    Okay, but gas, ass or grass... nobody rides for free.

  20. #60
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    Again, I would agree with you that the response to Mattingly got way out of hand, and from the evidence we were privy to he didn't remotely deserve that either. And I really don't like to play one-upmanship with stuff like this. But I'm sorry, going by that original compilation of the people Quinn got into a shouting match with (and other things, maybe?) I guess - put very crudely, I stress - I do think there's something about her case that's more important, however badly she herself fucked up. I do think it relates to something about gaming culture and the internet in general (not this corruption in games journalism nonsense) that's far nastier and darker and not just "lolz, internet, what u gonna do?" or even "Christ, leave that poor person alone"... about which Something Will Have To Be Done at some point, probably.
    I don't condone the anger at Quinn - the threats, the derogatory terms, the bickering, none of that is warranted because it isn't clear what actually happened, and the charges are murky at best. It's made worse by many tweets or posts being deleted or disappearing, combined with rage on all sides (like Fish comparing anyone questioning Quinn to rapists, although he quickly deleted that tweet). The "something about her case" is that she's female - that's the elephant in the room nobody here wants to mention. It's well established that misogyny exists in gaming culture - the question is whether this is a hateful misogynist attack and nothing else, or a legitimate concern hijacked by hateful rhetoric.

    Whatever the case, my point has little to do with this being right or wrong, or about Quinn's guilt - it's entirely immaterial. My point is that people who are up in arms about the controversy and hate should recall that plenty are ready to condone it when the shoe is on the other foot. People call for proof and analysis and so on, yet they've hunted others with less proof or a simple allegation. Some parts of the internet are acting like they've never engaged in active defamation on a flimsy pretext - yet Temkin (Cards Against Humanity) underwent similar scrutiny on a several-years-old allegation of sexual assault, which was effectively a few lines of someone accusing him of it. The Social Justice Warriors and the Anons (to give two fairly arbitrary names to the two 'sides' here) are just as guilty when it comes to attempting character assassination. Their only difference is in how they justify it.
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    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

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