Argh! Syndicate lives! (and it's a FPS...)

[thesisko]

I find this bothersome in a way that XCOM wasn't. Because turned-based strategy, in the mainstream, is dead.

I wasn't aware that turned-based strategy was ever mainstream (the way that FPS games are considered mainstream today).
Do you have any proof that modern turn-based strategy games like HoMM, Civilization and King's Bounty sell a lesser number of copies than 90's turn-based strategy games did?

As for old IP's turning into FPS, well duh...most old IP's are bought/owned by "AAA" studios. It's not like Paradox is going to pick up an old IP. Just ignore them and support companies making games you like.

[Heliocentric]

If Syndicate is an FPS it should be one player coop ala Space Hulk or with squads of minions to command like rainbow six Vegas or Swat 4, but obviously turned up to 11. Oh, and persuadatron victims should be like minions in overlord.

[Casimir Effect]

The worst part is what they're going to do to the setup. There is no chance it'll let you play the simple part of a drugged-out thug/assassin for you corporation whose only goal is to further theirs. Instead I guarentee we'll get some bullshit where your main character sees the error of his ways and probably joins a fucking resistance group where they save the whales and weave sandals at the weekends.

I can already see the plot being described as "A story of BETRAYAL and REVENGE!", because we're just going to be shooting for originality with this game aren't we EA you bunch of complete whoreholes?

Why couldn't this opportunity be used to do something experimental in the strategy genre? Oh, because EA saw how well DE: HR did and wanted their own piece of the action.

[Rii]

Oh, because EA saw how well DE: HR did and wanted their own piece of the action.

Well from the sounds of it this has been coming for a while now but yeah the bandwagon effect (noted moreso in the other thread) is amusing.

[Anthile]

Apparently, the story is written by Richard Morgan. You may have my firstborn, EA.

[coldvvvave]

I really like to punch my LCD reading this crap about Syndicate being some sort of sophisticated strategy game. It wasn't. It was a top-down shooter with short missions set in sandbox-ish yet pretty much empty environment. Like Deus Ex, it was made by throwing random ideas in a blender in hoping that it works, games are not made like that anymore. IIRC Moulinex didn't even like the game, for what it's worth. For petes sake, go play it before posting this drama, it will probably run fine with dos-box. Goddamnit, you people.

[deano2099]

I wasn't aware that turned-based strategy was ever mainstream (the way that FPS games are considered mainstream today).
Do you have any proof that modern turn-based strategy games like HoMM, Civilization and King's Bounty sell a lesser number of copies than 90's turn-based strategy games did?

I meant mainstream in terms of the videogame market. Turned-based strategy once was, it isn't anymore. Obviously that's down to the growth of the market, in absolute terms I imagine the market size is similar, but that doesn't mean much stacked against increased production costs.

[TillEulenspiegel]

increased production costs.

Unless you're making a AAA cinematic extravaganza, production costs are almost certainly down. The tools available are far better than they were in the DOS days, and game development processes have matured significantly.

When publishers whine about increased costs, it's because they've decided to effectively make a CG film. Small indie studios have no trouble producing quality games on a relative shoestring.

[thesisko]

I meant mainstream in terms of the videogame market. Turned-based strategy once was, it isn't anymore. Obviously that's down to the growth of the market, in absolute terms I imagine the market size is similar, but that doesn't mean much stacked against increased production costs.

I'd imagine the market size is larger than it was in the 90's, in absolute terms. It makes no sense to define mainstream the way you just did. Console gaming was mainstream in the 90's, not turn-based PC strategy games. The big difference was a much clearer separation between console and PC games.

And the production cost argument only makes sense if you assume that existing strategy game buyers would not buy a low-budget strategy game because they'd rather play a high-budget FPS.

[thesisko]

When publishers whine about increased costs, it's because they've decided to effectively make a CG film. Small indie studios have no trouble producing quality games on a relative shoestring.

IMO the main reason they whine is to justify "streamlining" of existing franchises. Instead of just admitting they want to try for a larger market they insist that "rising production costs" "forced" them to do it.

[deano2099]

I'd imagine the market size is larger than it was in the 90's, in absolute terms. It makes no sense to define mainstream the way you just did. Console gaming was mainstream in the 90's, not turn-based PC strategy games. The big difference was a much clearer separation between console and PC games.

Right fine. Substitute 'mainstream' for 'large enough to make EA's shareholder's happy' - I think what I meant was obvious from the context as everyone else seemed to get it though.

And the production cost argument only makes sense if you assume that existing strategy game buyers would not buy a low-budget strategy game because they'd rather play a high-budget FPS.

Art costs go up. Music costs go up. AI costs go up. Yes, it's still "low budget" comparative to CoDBlOps but it's higher than it was, and the market isn't that much larger for turn-based strategy.

Besides my point was that Syndicate played more like an RTS, and there are plenty of companies making high-budget RTSs that seem to sell very well.

[thesisko]

Right fine. Substitute 'mainstream' for 'large enough to make EA's shareholder's happy' - I think what I meant was obvious from the context as everyone else seemed to get it though.

You said: "Because turned-based strategy, in the mainstream, is dead.", implying that once upon a time it wasn't.

Applying your clarification above would mean that you thought it was once so big that it would make a publisher of EA's size happy. It never was. It would make a small publisher of PC games happy in the 90's and it would make a small publisher of PC games happy today.

Art costs go up. Music costs go up. AI costs go up. Yes, it's still "low budget" comparative to CoDBlOps but it's higher than it was, and the market isn't that much larger for turn-based strategy.

Better margins and easy global distribution due to digital distribution should offset the increased costs of asset production. A turn-based strategy game doesn't exactly have to use the Crysis engine. As for AI, well....I haven't seen much evidence of progress there.

Besides my point was that Syndicate played more like an RTS, and there are plenty of companies making high-budget RTSs that seem to sell very well.

Well, it makes perfect sense to use an old IP like this. CoD-clones have high sales potential but it's hard to stand out from the rest, meaning you'll risk an expensive flop. Using a well-known IP is a good way to increase visibility. They wanted to make another CoD-clone and looked in their portfolio for an appropriate dead IP to butcher.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Art costs go up. Music costs go up.

That's so new, and definitely not feasible unless you sell 50 million copies.

[_Jackalope_]

Hmm, I would be all "Argh so not in the spirit of the original" if it wasn't for my schoolmates and I constantly talking about how great Syndicate was and wouldn't it be "like, totally amazing if they made a co-op game where four of us could control one cyborg each and it be like Doom". So yeah, can't bitch because 15 years ago we wanted this.

[Item!]

I really like to punch my LCD reading this crap about Syndicate being some sort of sophisticated strategy game. It wasn't. It was a top-down shooter with short missions set in sandbox-ish yet pretty much empty environment. Like Deus Ex, it was made by throwing random ideas in a blender in hoping that it works, games are not made like that anymore. IIRC Moulinex didn't even like the game, for what it's worth. For petes sake, go play it before posting this drama, it will probably run fine with dos-box. Goddamnit, you people.

SO why not take it and make a sophisticated isometric/top down action strategy game, building on the license, atmosphere and totally amoral approach of the original (and to a lesser extent, the sequel) and selling that off the nostalgia that people hold for the series rather than shoehorning it into another FPS..

As others have said, why bother even resurrecting the license for this game when Syndicate nostalgia freaks like myself are just going to be aggreieved at the direction the new game is taking?

[deano2099]

I really like to punch my LCD reading this crap about Syndicate being some sort of sophisticated strategy game. It wasn't. It was a top-down shooter with short missions set in sandbox-ish yet pretty much empty environment. Like Deus Ex, it was made by throwing random ideas in a blender in hoping that it works, games are not made like that anymore. IIRC Moulinex didn't even like the game, for what it's worth. For petes sake, go play it before posting this drama, it will probably run fine with dos-box. Goddamnit, you people.

It's okay to complain:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011...y-to-complain/

1) There are plenty of FPSs about, not many games like Syndicate (DOW2 is probably the nearest modern comparison, I think most people would be happy with a Syndicate in that style).
2) The old game still exists, they can't take that away, but resurrecting the series in this way means that they likely won't resurrect the series as a strategy-style game as well. Because if it is successful, Syndicate will become an FPS franchise.
3) Molyneux barely worked on the game.
4) It's one thing to take a previously successful series and remake it as an FPS to play on the name of the franchise. I can just about live with that. What seems to be happening here is that EA are quite aware that no Syndicate fans really want the game making in to an FPS, but they realise that by winding these people up by doing so, they'll get a ton of publicity for it. It's not just that it's getting more coverage today than a new IP would, it's that it's getting more coverage today than using an existing FPS IP would.

I'm not normally one for conspiracies but it honestly feels like that's what's going on here.

[Capt. Eduardo del Mango]

There's no reason to automatically asume that it's either A) Going to suck or B) Going to piss all over the memory of the original games, although in each case it may well. I have fond memories of the old Syndicate, but if they make a Syndicate FPS it's not going to ruin those memories for me. It's not like they were going "Top-down-shooter resurrection of the old games, or FPS? Top down, FPS... Hrm..." and that this has scuppered the chances of us seeing an updated 'classic' Syndicate.

As per usual, the only thing I would say at this point is... Is it that hard to come up with a new idea for your new game? You're going for "Cyberpunk FPS" - was it really necessary to take the (fairly minimal) backstory from an almost two decade old game that the vast majority of people playing the new FPS will have never been anywhere near? I'm sure the free publicity plays a part, but I reckon it plays more into the chronic AAA lack of imagination than anything else.

[Vexing Vision]

Hilarious, and topical:

http://twitter.com/#!/petermolydeux/...68689985478656

[burningpet]

Did you read about his idea via twitter about the FPS where you can only see your enemies in mirrors? he on expanded that saying that if you dont have a mirror nearby, throw some liquid on the floor to cause a reflection. the man is still bright.

[Kadayi]

The only real issue here is the name 'Syndicate', and people getting their knickers in a twist over the sanctity of yesteryear.

Gamer: 'So let me get this right, your next title is a futuristic FPS which is kind of a mix of Deus Ex/Splinter Cell & Hitman and it's also upto 4 player L4D/Portal 2 style co-op as well, made by Starbreeze Studios?'

EA PR: 'Indeed Yes'

Gamer: 'Sign me up'

EA PR 'Were going to call it Syndicate'

Gamer: 'WTF!! You're raping my childhood!!! Eat a bag of Dicks EA!! I'm outta here!!!'

Exit stage left with gangster limp...