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  1. #1341
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkFenix View Post
    Which game are you talking about? Because in DS2 three fucking spells aren't going to fell any 'real' boss, or bring it anywhere fucking near 25%. Sorry, am I swearing enough to give my point extra validity? I can add some extras if I need more to make it correct.
    Maybe you need to chill a bit. You're taking this personal on a level that borders on unhealthy. And you're also wrong. Maybe you co-oped all the bosses when you went Lightning Spear, if you think this isn't the case? Because going solo, most bosses did fall that easily.

    You're ignoring the ammo (or lack thereof) a Miracle caster will have to fall back on. A 'pure' caster needs more than a few spells to beat a boss, it needs spells to deal with the entire space between bonfires.
    I'm not ignoring ammo. You're ignoring the solutions provided for your issue. You can get items that increase spell uses quite early in the game and you get another spell use early on in attunement. You can completely mitigate this to a level that you, yourself, deemed acceptable, while still not going pure caster.

    A pure miracle build should have to invest to be powerful, but as I see it now you'll need to be close to NG+ on a miracle-user now to get what I'd call an adequate number of spell casts
    Hahaha...ha..haha....ha. No. Going by your very personal number of 6 for LS:
    Northern Ritual Band: Wharf (+1) or Sinner's. (+0)
    Hexer's Hood: Huntsman's Copse.
    Saint's Hood: Heide Tower of Flame.
    Attunement: 26 Attunement for 4 base spellcasts.

    Yes, yes. Very late game items and stats these are. GLS gets 3 uses at 26 Attunement. Apply Items. Congratulations you're now above your own personal threshold.
    And let's not forget Herbs and Red Water. Since the game is that easy - your words - you won't need more than one or two tries for a boss. Therefore you're swimming in Spell Restore Items. Unless you're not as hardcore as you make out to be. But even then it will take a significant amount of wiping to run out of Spell Restore Items. And if you're complaining that a full supplement of spells doesn't carry you through an entire region without spell restore items... well so does sorcery. If you do nothing but casting - which you seem to imply you absolutely must be able to do with lightning spear for it to be balanced - you end up with maybe one or two casts of Soul Arrow, when you reach the boss. That's maybe 200-300 damage. Yay!

    Also Casting Times for Sorceries are high as well. The reason it looks so fast is because of the Clear Bluestone Ring +2, which is available as early as Huntsman's Copse. That's a thing that should be fixed, something that powerful shouldn't really be that easy to obtain. Use a Chime with decent cast speed and slap on the Clear Bluestone Ring+2 and those healing spells come out surprisingly fast. Definitely fast enough to slip them in inbetween boss attack patterns, so they're far from useless.

  2. #1342
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    I don't even know what you're trying to argue. Fact is that now there is very little reason to choose a faith build over a sorcery or hex one - unless you really like the theme. People complain it was unnecessary because well, it is. That's how From handled nerfs in the past. Santier's too strong? Make it a glorified toothpick in the next patch. At least Santier's is just one weapon. For faith builds the Lightning Spear is fundamental.
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  3. #1343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthile View Post
    I don't even know what you're trying to argue.
    It's fairly obvious. I'm arguing that the nerf was needed and doesn't make the spell as useless as you two (or three) claim. Funny in that RPS is the first place I've seen people complain about this change.

    Fact is that now there is very little reason to choose a faith build over a sorcery or hex one - unless you really like the theme.
    And that's bad how? Now you've got the choice of going with what you like, whereas previously you were pretty much gimping yourself if you didn't go Lightning Spears.

  4. #1344
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    The argument in favor of this knee-jerk reaction nerfing of Paladins kills me. It really does.

    Imagine if, four to five months after the release of, say, Skyrim or Far Cry 3, the devs had come back in and nerfed your preferred weapon and all of your favorite explosives or magic spells. Stuff you had spent the entire game investing in. Imagine if they nerfed the gun or sword you had spent ALL OF your VERY LIMITED crafting resources on improving. As I did, with Petrified Dragon Bones and Defender Greatsword, or Twinkling Titanite and Drangleic Greatsword.

    You would be here howling in rage. Because those are single player games or strictly single player campaigns.

    But because you prefer to try and tell other people how they should experience their own single player play through of a game that happens to have a multi-player component, you justify it instead. Who cares if Miracle casting really is "Easy Mode" in Dark Souls 2?

    Its not - it barely scratches certain enemies who are more than capable of blocking the damage or turning it away. Try spamming Spears at a Looking Glass Knight or Pursuer while they are blocking. Heck, Pursuer goes not even give you time to cast. Or any of the knights in Heide's Tower, for that matter. Yes, there are numerous areas of the game where Lightning Spear makes the game easier. Iron Keep, and some of the later areas come readily to mind.

    And so what? Does it detract from your uber hard, melee only play through if someone else chooses to use Spear miracles? Does it somehow diminish your accomplishment thereby? If anything I would think it would improve your own gaming ego, seeing as how you COULD HAVE gone the so called easy route and chose not to do so.

    Taking out the ridiculous "Easy Mode" "supporting" argument, the bottom line is this: Paladin/Offensive Miracle builds were one of the viable choices From gave us. For four months hundreds, maybe even thousands, of people decided on that option for one of their characters or more. And enjoyed it.

    Now, From has taken that choice away. For no better reason than...well, there really isn't any viable reason. Period. They just chose to do so, because ostensibly they only want a person to be able to play the game one or two ways.

    I will say one thing: My next purchase from this developer will be no earlier than six months after the release. If it happens at all. They had no call to do this. They had no RIGHT to do this.

    Think about it this way: They have removed or severely lowered the quality of a feature that is part of a product they sold you months ago. Without you permission. Without you having any say in it.

    Imagine getting halfway through a tv series or a book on your e-reader, and suddenly have the author/writer cut 50 pages of content or an episode of three focusing on one of your favorite characters - including material you had already read or watched. And then basing their conclusion on the revised material, essentially wasting your investment. All without giving you a choice on whether you wanted the revised edition. At all.

    THAT is what From did. Nothing less. I dont know that I will ever buy another game with an online multi-player component as long as I live. Combined with other situations I have seen over the last few years, thats how little I trust any developer or publisher with sufficient funds to make and sustain such a game.
    Last edited by Blackcompany; 19-07-2014 at 10:07 PM.

  5. #1345
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    Okay, now it went from ridiculous hyperbole into creepy as hell. Sheesh, Dark Souls isn't a religion, you're taking this a tad too personal. And about your accusations, no, I wouldn't be howling in rage because these are games. Your other examples don't even apply. But I see that arguing this further will probably be damaging to you or DarkFenix, so I'll refrain from doing so.

  6. #1346
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthile View Post
    Healing miracles have very long casting times. You can't really use them in combat. Healing gems are ubiquitous and then you still have estus. They are only useful for sunbroing.
    Guidance and Unveil are garbage. Homeward is just a reusable homeward bone and becomes obsolete once you reach the aerie. Force only works on the Mace of the Insolent and even then it's a gimmick. Soul Appease is extremely situational.
    That leaves you with just (Great) Magic Barrier and Sacred Oath, which takes 4 attunement slots.
    I was mostly referring to PvE though... In PvP sorceries with a lot of spell charges deal puny damage if you have at least some magic resist, while i've been 1-shotted by great lightning spear or whatever plenty of times.
    And sacred oath is pretty damn good... don't really know about magic barrier. And you can also bait people with WoTG and great heal i believe.

    Tbh i find faith even with the nerf better than sorceries for PvP. Though for me sorceries are more fun because they have more varied attacks, soul shower and soul vortex are pretty funny haha.

  7. #1347
    @BlackCompany "For no better reason than...well, there really isn't any viable reason."
    I disagree. Balance. Since this is also a multiplayer game, PvP also matters. And why shouldn't it be balanced for PvE? As it is you still have a ton of healing spells and can still buff and infused lightning weapon i believe, making the damage even more crazy in PvE.
    Yeah, everyone is allowed to play how they want, i enjoy pure melee the most in PvE with some spells in PvP, but that doesn't mean there doesn't have to be some kind of balance.
    And just for the record, DS1 got plenty of patches even 2 years into the game, so expect even more "game-breaking" stuff or whatever. Some did really big changes.
    For me it doesn't really matter, it's their game and i expected it (since DS1 creates a kind of model to how they do things), though i would have liked it even more if infused weapons couldn't get buffed by magic and a resin nerf (if it's needed).

    Still, for those who want, i guess an offline mode to restore the game to a previous patch could be good.

  8. #1348
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    Dont claim offensive miracles were nerfed for PVP. We both know they affect PVP about as often as a player who has never seen one before gets hit with their first one. I have fought in more than 3 dozen PVP battles. I have hit someone with a Spear miracle twice. And once was because they invaded while my girl and I were together in co-op and I hit them from behind while they were fighting her warrior. And those healing spells you talked about as a reason to still play a Faith build...they are no longer allowed in PVP - as if we ever had time to cast them before.

    This had nothing to do with PVP.

    As for PVE and balance, that is subjective. They have increased the damage on nearly every weapon in the game that does not have "Greatsword" in its title. Made the game much easier for those who rely on shield+spear poking. Or Dex focused weaponry. Basically, anyone reliant on melee got a break. So should we call dedicated melee builds the new "Easy Mode" build for Dark Souls 2?

    How I choose to play single player games is my business. I set the new Wolfenstein game on easy mode. Because I kept dying even on medium. And while granted I'm certainly no expert FPS player, I also suffered from numerous wrist injuries - multiple sprains and carpel tunnel once, for good measure - and I have to play with a controller because sustained kb/m gaming is simply impossible for me, due to pain. So needless to say, I suffer a distinct drop off in accuracy and precision movement compared to most PC gamers playing Wolfenstein - and my dexterity with a controller aint the greatest to boot.

    So I play in Easy Mode. But that game has a dark, oppressive atmosphere and a dangerous world, too. Also...an Uber mode. Literally, an Uber Hard mode. So should the developers patch the game and take away my ability to play it? Granted, Easy mode is a little easier than I would like - and I cannot imagine how easy the Very Easy mode must be - but Medium was a little too hectic and demanding and so I turned it down.

    Which according to some people must detract from their own experience, playing their own single player campaign on a higher difficulty. So should the devs just...take away my ability to enjoy a product I paid money to enjoy, because my enjoying it my way somehow diminishes the enjoyment of others in their own minds?

    Lets be careful what we sanction here, shall we.
    Last edited by Blackcompany; 20-07-2014 at 05:26 AM.

  9. #1349
    Well the thing with dark souls is, as i see it, that there isn't really an easy mode and it should be a pretty balanced experience overall.
    And if it wasn't balanced for PvP it makes sense as it is, since imo lightning spears had the highest damage for the lowest investment. And from what i gathered it isn't even that big of a nerf damage wise, mostly the amount of charges you had got nerfed.
    Also, since you have healing spells and all that, to me it seems like faith was mostly intended to be used with melee as well, not only spell spam like is the case with sorceries, which already deal pretty low damage on the standard spells.

  10. #1350
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnderwaterCacty View Post
    Well the thing with dark souls is, as i see it, that there isn't really an easy mode and it should be a pretty balanced experience overall.
    And if it wasn't balanced for PvP it makes sense as it is, since imo lightning spears had the highest damage for the lowest investment. And from what i gathered it isn't even that big of a nerf damage wise, mostly the amount of charges you had got nerfed.
    Also, since you have healing spells and all that, to me it seems like faith was mostly intended to be used with melee as well, not only spell spam like is the case with sorceries, which already deal pretty low damage on the standard spells.
    How much damage will they actually do to a boss, and how many enemies will you be able to kill? They nerfed the most awesome looking skill in the game, and not in a good way.

    Even if you carry the max of two copies, your still left with almost half the charges it took one.
    Last edited by hideinlight; 20-07-2014 at 11:15 AM.

  11. #1351
    Quote Originally Posted by hideinlight View Post
    How much damage will they actually do to a boss, and how many enemies will you be able to kill? They nerfed the most awesome looking skill in the game, and not in a good way.

    Even if you carry the max of two copies, your still left with almost half the charges it took one.
    Hmm well i didn't look at the figures, but if now you can only carry 3 spells or so for lightning spear then yeah that is overkill.
    I thought they made it 6 or 7.

    On another note, i think the buff to piercing weapons like rapiers was unnecessary. They already did plenty of damage imo.

  12. #1352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcompany View Post
    *snip*
    As I said, I'm not arguing the Lightning Spear anymore, but I will defend myself from your implications and accusations. I suffer from a severe nerve injury that reduces agility and reflexes to a laughable level. I'm a person that adapts. You're one that quits in rage. Shove your implications were the sun don't shine.

    So kindly buzz the hell off with the implication I'm out to opress people with disabilities or forcefully intruding on their game, just because I agree with From's (!) nerf on Lightning Spears and see it as reasonable and fair to bring it on the power level of the other options, reasoning supplied above. Adapt or quit.

  13. #1353
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    Quote Originally Posted by theForged View Post
    As I said, I'm not arguing the Lightning Spear anymore, but I will defend myself from your implications and accusations. I suffer from a severe nerve injury that reduces agility and reflexes to a laughable level. I'm a person that adapts. You're one that quits in rage. Shove your implications were the sun don't shine.

    So kindly buzz the hell off with the implication I'm out to opress people with disabilities or forcefully intruding on their game, just because I agree with From's (!) nerf on Lightning Spears and see it as reasonable and fair to bring it on the power level of the other options, reasoning supplied above. Adapt or quit.
    Maybe take a couple of the chill pills you're prescribing to others. Right from the beginning of this discussion you've been increasingly aggressive towards anyone in disagreement with you, seemingly oblivious to it even as I mimicked your own (lack of) manners back at you. Right now you're acting like a complete tit, apparently in the belief that your personal opinion is objective fact. So take a step back, maybe read a couple of your own posts, and calm down.

  14. #1354
    Everyone has subjective opinions here though. Not even from is completely objective in their list of changes.
    Maybe they struggle with a lack of faith.

  15. #1355
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkFenix View Post
    Maybe take a couple of the chill pills you're prescribing to others. Right from the beginning of this discussion you've been increasingly aggressive towards anyone in disagreement with you, seemingly oblivious to it even as I mimicked your own (lack of) manners back at you. Right now you're acting like a complete tit, apparently in the belief that your personal opinion is objective fact. So take a step back, maybe read a couple of your own posts, and calm down.
    Uh huh. Uh huh. Yeah, well no. You're the one that has repeatedly tried to escalate this. Succesfully too, seeing how this discussion is now little more than a flamewar and has somehow ended up as "If you're pro nerf, then you're oppressing people with an disability and a tyrant that wants to ruin other's fun". Congratulations on that.
    I have not been aggressive towards people prior to blackcompany's comment, but I have countered claims with claims of my own and even ways around the new limitations. You know, how it's typical for a discussion on balance. You seem to take my disagreement as a personal attack though, which led to the chill pill comment. And seeing how you're now trying to turn this on me with an added dose of character assasination, yeah. I'll stick to the statement. Don't see me disagreeing with you as a personal attack, it isn't.

    So can we turn this back from attacks on people, back onto the actual discussion, or do you still insist to further fuel a pointless flamewar?

    /Edit:
    Alright, let's make a bid. If you find two people that agree with you that it's me that is starting a fire and not just disagreeing with you on a balancing change, I'll happily remove myself from the Forums, since that'd mean I don't fit in when I write in what I consider a normal fashion. If a single mod thinks so, ban away. Otherwise don't take a balancing change personal and get off my back.
    Last edited by theForged; 20-07-2014 at 03:05 PM.

  16. #1356
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    My apologies if anyone here thought I was targeting them with comments I made. Seriously, I'm not trying to do so.

    On the other hand...I am genuinely curious as to why some people think its "fair and reasonable" for a developer to completely eliminate options from a title I have purchased, months after the purchase was made. The game had a beta for balancing purposes. They chose to leave the Miracle casters alone following the beta. At this point - barring something that actually breaks the game, from a technical standpoint - we should be able to count on all balancing changes having been made.

    This should not have happened. Not to this degree. Not at all. If someone wants to play the game in the most difficult and challenging manner possible I personally applaud them. If someone else just wants to log in and blast enemies with Lightning Spears...go for it. Sometimes I prefer one approach and sometimes another, myself. But I dont think any one way is the right way. And I dont presume to tell others how they should or should not be allowed to play a game.

    But forget all that. All of it. For a moment lets ignore the specific changes that were made. Lets forget about miracle nerfing and weapon buffing. Let us instead address the principle of what was done, as opposed to the technical details.

    And that, was this:

    We purchased a product. After the conclusion of Beta Testing, we purchased a product. Included in that product were several ways in which we were able to enjoy it. NOT included in that product, were warnings that some of these methods for enjoyment might be reduced or even eliminated at a later date.

    Regardless of that lack of disclosure, this is what happened. One of the methods for enjoying - for using - a product we purchased, was drastically reduced in its quality or eliminated. This was done:

    -Months after the purchase of the product
    -Despite the changes being technically unnecessary (nothing changed fixed something that was functionally broken)
    -Without warning or disclosure that it might be done
    -Without the option to exclude oneself from the changes if they were unwanted
    -Despite the fact that what was changed had little to no effect on PVP
    -Despite the fact that numerous customers did not want the change
    -For entirely - and this is important - ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE reasons

    Not only is this not the most ethically sound of practices. I am not even sure its strictly legal in certain regions or areas of the world. Refer back to the post I made about someone removing favorite parts of your book or movie/tv show series, AFTER you watched them and without warning you first, and then altering the conclusion of the material based on the changes you didnt want.

    So much for that time investment.

    For me this isnt about the specific changes made. Not any more. This is about gaming not really needingany more scrutiny from certain quarters than its already subjecting itself to. EA with their "Unfinished Product" lawsuit. Constant allegations of sexism, racism and extreme violence in a product many perceive (whether wrongly or otherwise) as targeting children and youth. Possible personality types prone to gaming addictions. Gaming gets a lot of negative press and negative publicity as it is, and I dont think its a good idea to invite more.

    Which is pretty much what changes this extreme accomplish. We can no longer count on buying finished products when we purchase a game. Whether its narrative (DLC) or technically broken content (bugs) most games we buy now arent really ready for public consumption. And often we are nickled and dimed to get the rest of the content. Now, apparently, we cant even count on games with closed betas to stop making changes to our preferred play styles even months after the beta is completed.

    So I will leave you with this to think on (after which I have had my say in this discussion and my fill of it): How much more can the gaming industry do to undermine the trust of its core audience in its developers, its publishers, its technical prowess and the products they offer, before it destroys itself? Every few months it seems to get worse. How much worse will it be able to get, before the Indies are the only game developers we have left?

    Whether that's a bad thing, necessarily, I will leave to future discussion.

    But the fact remains: You can only screw over and abuse your own customers so long, before they will begin to support any and all attempts - no matter how drastic or detrimental to your business - to make you pay for it. If you dont believe me, ask the CEO of a bank or health care insurance company in the US. IF you can get someone to admit to being one in the first place.
    Last edited by Blackcompany; 20-07-2014 at 03:11 PM.

  17. #1357
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Prolar Bear's Avatar
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    From some basic googling I did, even if I tend to agree with theForged's argument, perhaps they reduced the spell uses a tad too much (from 22 with 2 LS copies to 6 at the same ATN level). I am pro nerf, as I think it'd be more balanced to require a deeper stat investment into miracles, but this might've been a bit too much. I have no idea about the damage change though.

    I might be wrong though, I don't know much about miracles.
    To be honest don't think this is about screwing over and abusing a customer...in fact, we could argue that anybody who was not using spells of any kind at all pre-patch was the one getting screwed over. It ultimately seems to be a balance change, one that's slightly extreme perhaps, but one that IMO looks to make the game more challenging and rewarding (fairly sure this is about PvE more than PvP).
    ...or maybe FROM wanted to hit people who use LS to farm areas (while putting every other LS user at a disadvantage in the process)?

    If someone wants to play the game in the most difficult and challenging manner possible I personally applaud them. If someone else just wants to log in and blast enemies with Lightning Spears...go for it. Sometimes I prefer one approach and sometimes another, myself. But I dont think any one way is the right way. And I dont presume to tell others how they should or should not be allowed to play a game.
    Sure, but I'd argue the devs have the right to make changes to their games. If they thought that that playstyle was too easy, why couldn't they change it?

    (don't want to be aggressive with this post, mind you - peace to everyone, make love not war, think before you drive etc.)

    EDIT 2: oh, let's not forget that this is just a patch and that everything can be undone or modified in the next update.
    Last edited by Prolar Bear; 20-07-2014 at 03:33 PM.

  18. #1358
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    ... This thread turned real crazy real quick. If you equate a balance patch with From 'abusing' their customers, I think you need to take a step back. That's not coming from a position of reason or logic, but an emotional response to something that really shouldn't be provoking that kind of reaction.

    I can't even fathom people saying faith didn't need a nerf. For instance there's a boss called the Darklurker, who is an optional 'secret' boss and is by all accounts is super tough. My encounter with this boss equated to pressing R1 three times and it dieing because of the absolutely terrible balancing of Miracles in PvE.

    Maybe they went overboard with the changes, but that's what balance patches are for, you try and balance, sometimes you get it wrong and retool the numbers with the next patch. There are plenty of ways to increase your casting slots. Cleric/paladins were in a position of have your cake and eat it in that they had the best spells, could wield the best weapons and wear the best armour all at once. It was ridiculous and even if they overnerfed, I prefer it where it is right now to where it was before.
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  19. #1359
    From some basic googling I did, even if I tend to agree with theForged's argument, perhaps they reduced the spell uses a tad too much (from 22 with 2 LS copies to 6 at the same ATN level). I am pro nerf, as I think it'd be more balanced to require a deeper stat investment into miracles, but this might've been a bit too much. I have no idea about the damage change though.

    I agree with this. I think they kinda nerfed the uses a bit too much. Though from what i gather, with high faith they deal more damage instead of wrecking everything at low faith as well.

  20. #1360
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    Anyone got a chance to play the new DLC yet? How does it compare to Artorias?

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