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  1. #401
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    I don't doubt there will be consequences but so far there's been two books with very little of it. Mistrust and a few dead sons, but Walder Frey has sons to spare and doesn't seem to care much about what people think of him. This might all change once we find out the events at Winterfell in book 5 and what comes of that. As for the Brotherhood it's always possible something major will happen but so far they haven't had much of an impact on anything.

    In any case the larger question still stands - does it matter? Is there any hint of a conclusion to any of the story threads that isn't miserable? I get that the story is first of all about the realm rather than any of the individuals or houses but the realm is so screwed that white walkers killing everyone actually seems like one of the better possible outcomes.

  2. #402
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    I don't doubt there will be consequences but so far there's been two books with very little of it. Mistrust and a few dead sons, but Walder Frey has sons to spare and doesn't seem to care much about what people think of him. This might all change once we find out the events at Winterfell in book 5 and what comes of that. As for the Brotherhood it's always possible something major will happen but so far they haven't had much of an impact on anything.

    In any case the larger question still stands - does it matter? Is there any hint of a conclusion to any of the story threads that isn't miserable? I get that the story is first of all about the realm rather than any of the individuals or houses but the realm is so screwed that white walkers killing everyone actually seems like one of the better possible outcomes.
    There is no way we can possibly predict if anything matters at all because we aren't Martin :p
    In all seriousness, that is also my feeling, as I have mentioned before, in that it just feels like not much really matters in the grand scheme of things.

    Also, in Martin's defense: The past two books had a lot of overlap in terms of time. While time itself is VERY vague and confusing, I think it is safe to say that not much time has passed. So just the general mistrust and disdainful feelings is probably enough for now. Frey was, more or less, serving The Throne when he commit a shit-ton of taboos, so that protect them from immediate reprisal, so now we are at the point where distrust and resentment is simmering. Assuming a 7 book timeline and book 6 taking about as long as book 2 or 3 took, there should start being real-ish consequences near the end of 6 and going into 7, even if it is just "Yeah, go fuck yourself. I am not helping you because you will just betray me"
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  3. #403
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Wenz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    So the original plan was of 3 books.:|
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  4. #404
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Yeah, very, very early on, and the idea was dropped quite quickly. Originally there was meant to be a lot longer between each POV's chapters, so 6 months or a year between Sansa chapter 3 and Sansa chapter 4, for example. But he realised very early on that doing it that way, he'd be telling half the story in flashbacks or filling the first half of each chapter with what happened in those 6 months, and that people would want to know what happened in the immediate aftermath of event X, rather than have event X happen and then rejoin that storyline 6 months later.

    There was also meant to be a 5 year gap in the story, starting where Storm ends... Death of Tywin, Lord Commander Jon Snow, Dany Queen of Meereen, Arya with the Faceless men, Sansa as Baelish's protege, etc. The story would catch up 5 or so years later with the young characters (and Dragons) all grown up... but again, that was dropped because it wouldn't make for much of a compelling story for those characters ("And Jon was LC for 5 years, in which nothing much happened", "Dany's reign was fair and prosperous, but now she had to go to Westeros" etc.). He decided to show their journeys, from the children they started out as, to the adults (or whatever) they end up being for the ending.
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  5. #405
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    And if I remember correctly, Clash of Kings was never meant to be it's own book, possibly not even ASOS, but he realised the scope of the story had outgrown that of one book.

    The Red Wedding was supposed to end the first book, as with the dragons being born, the middle book would have been ADWD, and finally TWOW/ADOS would have rounded it up.
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  6. #406
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    There is no way we can possibly predict if anything matters at all because we aren't Martin :p
    In all seriousness, that is also my feeling, as I have mentioned before, in that it just feels like not much really matters in the grand scheme of things.
    That's certainly true, but my feeling is that there aren't any real threads I can follow without expecting everything to go to hell. The "nobody is safe" idea is great when it's a possibility but as the books go along I'm feeling more like awful things happening is the mandatory response to any vaguely hopeful development. It's not altogether a bad thing but it's changed my expectations and investment in the characters.

  7. #407
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    That's certainly true, but my feeling is that there aren't any real threads I can follow without expecting everything to go to hell. The "nobody is safe" idea is great when it's a possibility but as the books go along I'm feeling more like awful things happening is the mandatory response to any vaguely hopeful development. It's not altogether a bad thing but it's changed my expectations and investment in the characters.
    I also feel that way ,and I think the one results in the other. Martin needs to keep things "on track", and that generally means "anything looks good, murder it". Which is actually part of the plot :p

    And I think that is why people may not be too far off when they call Westeros "grimdark". Everything is horrible, everyone is evil, and if that pretty girl from across the street smiles at you you can be damned sure she is gonna be raped and murdered.

    Which I find interesting when you contrast it with someone like Joe Abercrombie or Brent Weeks. There is no denying that the popularity of Martin paved the way for them and both of them go MUCH darker than Martin ever does. The former has the same sense of "the bad guy will win, no matter what" and the latter basically went out of his way to cause horrific suffering to everyone the protagonist of his Night Angel series ever knew (and in ways that are meant to hurt).

    But both ALSO make it a point to never give up on hope. The bad guy wins and the world is doomed to hell? Fine, but at least these characters are better off. And maybe, just maybe, that character can one day stop the bad guy.

    I think I pasted it in this thread a while back, but I am reminded of Sam's speech to Frodo in Return of the King (which I think was in the book too, but I only remember The Rudy-Hobbit saying it to Sigma :p). The old stories were scary and you thought that the heroes could never win, but you knew they would find a way. Because all hope never truly was lost, there was always a glimmer.

    I feel Martin has lost sight of that, in large part because even if The Hero (likely Dany and/or Jon Snow) comes to save the day, they will probably be betrayed and fucked over. The BEST anyone can hope for is a horrific tyrant to murder and subjugate everyone instead of an ice zombie murdering and subjugating everyone.
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  8. #408
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    I think martins end game is democracy the people that do bad and good and have horrible things happen to them have something in common they are leading people without anyone having a say. I think one of martins themes are clearly having one ruler for life is crap even if their good because ther mistakes/lust for power can destroy lives. Just look at Ned Stark he died after he decided he was going to be king for a little while yes buthe still said im the one that should be king for the greater good.

  9. #409
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    That's certainly true, but my feeling is that there aren't any real threads I can follow without expecting everything to go to hell.
    So, when a moment of hope or happiness does arrive, it'll be twice as sweet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    Just look at Ned Stark he died after he decided he was going to be king for a little while yes buthe still said im the one that should be king for the greater good.
    Not really. Ned was named Regent by Robert, and planned to hand power over to Stannis as soon as he possibly could. He would have held power for as long as it took Stannis to sail to King's Landing, maybe a week or so.

    I think there will be something about a change in Westeros, towards the end... I can see Daenerys having a thing or two to say about the Feudal system when she finally arrives. But she might be too occupied to do anything about it... and hell, it's better than the Slaver societies to the East.
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  10. #410
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    It was awhile since I read/watched it but I thought robert died before he could say ned was regent and ned had to fudge it with that letter he wrote meaning even though it was noble He still did something shady.

  11. #411
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
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    If I recall correctly the only part than Ned fudged was putting "My heir" instead of "My son".

  12. #412
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    An entire episode at the wall and no Stannis. I'm thinking that will be the big opener for the next season as I don't think it can be squeezed into next week's finale, since there will definitely be much time spent in King's Landing.
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  13. #413
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    So, when a moment of hope or happiness does arrive, it'll be twice as sweet.
    Or twice as implausible.

  14. #414
    Moderator Anthile's Avatar
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    That was quite the episode... damn Anor Londo archers are at it again. I mean that guy is dead.

    Curiously, there was only a good 100 black brothers in the books before the fight but if the body count in the episode is any indication there should be just about no one left now.
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  15. #415
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    I actually tried googling the body count, but couldnt find anything, but the thought occurred to me as well. It was a pretty uninteresting episode imo, I just find the whole Jon Snow arc uninteresting, the stuff with Gilly in particular. I would have preferred more Kings Landing/Sansa/Arya.

  16. #416
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Fun episode at the Wall. Not sure what was up with the Giant Scythe Hidden Under The Ice, but it was effective - I guess. Also, are the wildlings scared of the giants? Why didn't anybody back that guy up going into the tunnel. Still, nit-picking aside, another attack like this - or at any other part of the Wall - and the joke will be on the Brothers.

    Also, mammoth mounts? Good times!

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  17. #417
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus pakoito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tritagonist View Post
    or at any other part of the Wall - and the joke will be on the Brothers.
    There was a reason for this in the book IIRC. Like, Black Castle's gate was the only one where you could fit an army in ranks of more than 2 at a time.

    If not, then well abused narrativium. Like Jon Snow's Plot Armor going into this last episode.

  18. #418
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    In the book there's also a diversionary attack at the Bridge of Skulls.
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  19. #419
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    In the books Mance threatens to send more climbers, or mammoths to unblock the other castle's gates, men to take Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower... he hoped the diversions he did set up, but were just diversions, and Jarl and Styr and that lot attacking a weakened Castle Black would be enough. He could keep doing it, sending parties to climb and attack Castle Black and that, but his people would bleed, from NW catching climbers, but mostly from the Others and Wights, which are preying upon them. He wants to get through the Wall soon, hence his threat to blow the Horn of Joramun if the Watch don't meet his terms.

    We'll likely get it in the show next week, as it looks like we'll be getting the Jon/Mance meeting, prior to Stannis' arrival. I thought they'd cut that out, or fit it into this episode, and have Stannis arrive anyway, so at the lowest moment for the NW, the trumpets sound, and Stannis rides to save the day, the battle is conclusive and you end on the chant of "Stannis! Stannis! Stannis!". I thought with them rolling the book battle, which happens over several days, into one night, they'd not have the Wildlings pulling back, calling it a night. I'm glad they've decided to keep it, mostly because we'll get the Jon/Mance meeting... and then another battle scene. And, like the books, it gives the Night's Watch their moment, however brief they might think it is. I just figured they'd roll it all up and finish the whole thing in that episode. Glad they didn't.

    Was a great episode as well. Already seen so many gifs of all the crazy fighting and deaths and action moments. Really well done fight scenes... Thorne and Tormund, and everything Jon Snow did after he jumped and rolled off the lift. Harrington's acting chops are certainly starting to show this season, as is his action stuff. That 360 degree shot was terrific as well. And then there was the Giants, the Mammoths, the Scythe, the burning pitch, the Giant Archer (if you rewatch it, the guy that got harpooned is in a whole heap of shots, just lying there, impaled), Sam the Slayer, Grenn taking Donal Noye's place.
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  20. #420
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Very curious as to how they’re going to end the series but what a great episode! Snow has become a badass hardened by the events of previous seasons.

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