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  1. #601
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    I'm not at all opposed to reading things which disgust me or make me feel bad (I wouldn't have made it through half the books on my shelf if I were). I am opposed to shittily set-up scenes that carry no value other than shocking the audience. I am judging it in context - in the context of all of the character arcs and progression that has happened so far, and in the context in which these things play out in the book. If Martin had set things up in the books as they are in the series then yes, I would have found that to be crap writing as well (and Martin certainly isn't exempt from criticism in this regard). Do you never feel emotions or have opinions on anything until you've seen it to the end?

    The two rapes I'm referring to are the ones where they removed consent or added refusal in opposition to the books. In the case of Dany/Drogo I didn't mind so much because that was at least part of her descent to the low point from which she develops as a character, and at least it told us something about the characters and the world. In the scene between Jaime and Cersei I still think they just made it a bit rapey to spice things up (they never even touched on it again in the show), which is just cheap writing.
    But that scene between Dany/Drogo ends the episode unless I'm not remembering it right. If it wasn't the end of the episode it was at least the last scene in which she was seen until the next one, so her arc for that episode ends as her crying, being scared and being forced to have sex. Sure, it sets up a pay off later (just like this one looks like it will be doing), but did you think the same back then? Where you thinking "fuck this, they just raped her for no reason other than to show Khal Drogo takes no shit".

    Do I never feel emotions or have opinions on anything until you've seen it to the end? Of course I do. I felt emotions when I saw that scene. However my emotions were for the characters in the scene and not for the production of the scene, particularly because I know there's more to come.
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  2. #602
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish
    You seem to be trying to hold up the fact that a couple of the characters are sexually liberalized in the show, and that those characters are acted well and in some cases by actors who are known for being so that the show is promoting sexual liberalization as a good thing and that nobody in it should be forced to do anything against how liberalized they're character would allow for.
    Almost. I think a lot of care went into that particular aspect of the show, and it is obvious that DnD wanted to nail that part down really well: They casted actors that understand that vision better then they themselves do! They have absolutely no qualms about what is now being referred to as "sexposition". They also made great care to show the sexually liberated character of the earlier mentioned characters as a strength. Sex is shown frequently and unashamedly becuase it is important to the characters. They obviously feel that the portrayal of sex in the show is very important and it shows in just about every scene they make that has sex in it. It's a certain attitude, one that runs counter to the OHGODANIPPLE culture that the normal broadcasters in the US subscribe to.
    But this last scene? It doesn't show that attitude at all. It's mediocre.
    Last edited by Grizzly; 21-05-2015 at 12:09 PM.
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  3. #603
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    But this last scene? It doesn't show that attitude at all.
    So how do they show a man of power, using sex as a weapon and a torture device, which is completely within line with that character? He's obviously very sexually liberalized himself, but he uses it in a very disgusting way.

    Not everyone whose sexual liberal on the show is going to use their sexy fun times to establish power in a nice way.
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  4. #604
    Activated Node Scissors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    In the case of Dany/Drogo I didn't mind so much because that was at least part of her descent to the low point from which she develops as a character, and at least it told us something about the characters and the world. In the scene between Jaime and Cersei I still think they just made it a bit rapey to spice things up (they never even touched on it again in the show), which is just cheap writing.
    I think the Jaime and Cersei scene tells us something about the characters. Jaimes frustration in the relationship with Cersei and Cerseis impulsive temperament were deepend by this scene. the shock value results from making it happen in front of their dead secret son, which can be interpreted in several ways too.
    i dont think the rape scenes are out of context and for pure shock value only. they make sense in the light of the characters involved and shape them further.
    Even if they set up these scenes to spice up the whole thing to add shock value, i dont think its bad writing if people are emotionally touched in one way or another and if their attention is directed in some of the darker regions of the protagonists personal history.
    to me its like oberyn getting his head smashed, its extreme to some degree with room for deeper analyses. but we should not forget that this is a tv show made to entertain the audience. it delivers extreme acts of violence across the board. if you are not entertained by it, if you feel offended, if you think its cheezy or badly written... i think you know the answer.
    of the many tv shows there are, GoT is certainly not a cheaply written one.

    @grizzly as i said before, the rape scene is not about sex, its about violence and power. you mix two very different things here. what you seem to criticize is a "GoT just uses sex to get attention" and you end up mixing things that do not really connect. in my opinion the naked people and the nakedness is displayed very natural. the perception of some viewers, is strange though. they seem to think, you dont have to show things to know they happen. cmon this is Game of Thrones... this show is explicit and direct, what the hell do you expect?

    the sexual violence is part of some characters like ramsey or joffrey. they are simply in a position some real life examples have used quite similar. i think it serves the purpose to show explicitly what kind of extreme people they really are. if you think its a higher art to cover things up or that images should only develop in the viewers mind, that is your opinion. i dont mind things to be shown explicitly. the images created that way, give room for interpretation and deepen the characters in the case of GoT.

    if you watch a show like GoT for sexual arousal and feel offended in the face of sexual violence, you are simply immature. GoT is about character development and the story it tells. thats the reason i like it and watch it. i couldnt care less about nakedness and the use of it. its not the driving force of the show.
    Last edited by Scissors; 21-05-2015 at 01:05 PM.
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  5. #605
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    But that scene between Dany/Drogo ends the episode unless I'm not remembering it right. If it wasn't the end of the episode it was at least the last scene in which she was seen until the next one, so her arc for that episode ends as her crying, being scared and being forced to have sex. Sure, it sets up a pay off later (just like this one looks like it will be doing), but did you think the same back then? Where you thinking "fuck this, they just raped her for no reason other than to show Khal Drogo takes no shit".

    Do I never feel emotions or have opinions on anything until you've seen it to the end? Of course I do. I felt emotions when I saw that scene. However my emotions were for the characters in the scene and not for the production of the scene, particularly because I know there's more to come.
    I touched on this before, but my problem isn't this incident of rape in isolation, but the fact that Sansa has no sensible motivation to accept being there at all - that's the context which makes me think it's cheap and gratuitous. Littlefinger manipulated her into accepting the marriage with a speech of revenge without there being any reason to think she'll be able to enact that revenge. The plan he lays out for her is to just bide her time waiting for Stannis to liberate Winterfell and name her Wardeness (in which case not feeding her to the psychotic maniacs and subjecting her to the risks of a battle would have seemed more sensible), alternatively she's to bide her time and work the Boltons from within because apparently she's a master manipulator now, which we've seen none of beyond her testimony after Lysa's death. It's weak characterisation at best and character assassination in service of gratuitous cruelty at worst.

    What I hoped for was some sign of continuing Sansa's growth as a character and showing designs of her own, which in fairness we got a glimpse of in the bath scene, but then it was back to meekly accepting her fate and hoping others would save her.

    In Dany's case her arranged marriage to Khal Drogo is the stepping stone from which she grows as a character, the first point on her journey from powerless to powerful. When I saw it in the show I had already read the books, but yes, when I read the book I found a lot of those chapters difficult to get through and I was doubting if the author really had much to offer beyond shock value and violence. The books do however have the enormous advantage of being much more fleshed out and letting you follow the inner thoughts of the characters themselves which helps a lot with making character developments and motivations clear to the reader.

  6. #606
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scissors View Post
    @grizzly as i said before, the rape scene is not about sex, its about violence and power. you mix two very different things here. what you seem to criticize is a "GoT just uses sex to get attention" and you end up mixing things that do not really connect. in my opinion the naked people and the nakedness is displayed very natural. the perception of some viewers, is strange though. they seem to think, you dont have to show things to know they happen. cmon this is Game of Thrones... this show is explicit and direct, what the hell do you expect?

    the sexual violence is part of some characters like ramsey or joffrey. they are simply in a position some real life examples have used quite similar. i think it serves the purpose to show explicitly what kind of extreme people they really are. if you think its a higher art to cover things up or that images should only develop in the viewers mind, that is your opinion. i dont mind things to be shown explicitly. the images created that way, give room for interpretation and deepen the characters in the case of GoT.

    if you watch a show like GoT for sexual arousal and feel offended in the face of sexual violence, you are simply immature. GoT is about character development and the story it tells. thats the reason i like it and watch it. i couldnt care less about nakedness and the use of it. its not the driving force of the show.
    This post made me think of a show called Strike Back, which is a co-production between the US and UK. It's a show that uses sex purely for titillation of the audience. If you're not familiar with it, it's basically two super duper special army men from both sides of the pond get up to all sorts of violence and activities while on special army men missions. And it includes a lot of sex. The kind of sex you'd see in a porno. Lots of shots of slow panning cameras, pulling back to show the action, lots of direction for the stars to pose in positions that show off their bodies as well as possible, lots of lighting to put shadows in just the right places and the scenes go on and on. A sex scene in GoT is usually something that's just started then ends or is just ending. A sex scene in Strike Back will go from both of them being clothed, to undressing each other, to full nudity and stay there for about as long as the car chase scenes.

    There's literally a female character whose the Russian version of the super duper special army men, and she shows up after a mission with a bottle of vodka to have sex with one of the army men in a classy hotel room. It's all done very un-naturally and purely because they want to keep people watching when there's not chasing, fighting or explosions.

    @Skal: The article that Kad posted does a pretty good job of explaining why Sansa had no other play at the time in the scene. You're right that her simple acceptance to go along with Littlefingers plan seems pretty stupid, but I (as a person who hasn't read the books) wonders if that will lead into something further down the line for her. Is she going to escape, will she reclaim the North, will she take revenge on Littlefinger? I'm not willing to just write off the story as it is now as being bad just because it hasn't all been presented to me.
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  7. #607
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    I was watching the episode with a friend (who doesn't follow GoT) and as soon as it was clear the wedding was taking place I told her that "ouch, this is going to be bad", so it's not as if the last scene was a big surprise in itself. I wasn't expecting Sansa to suddenly backflip and kick Ramsay out of a window and I knew Theon wouldn't intervene. Had they at least spent some time showing Sansa actually trying to accomplish something before the wedding, even if it failed and the outcome was the same, then the whole thing wouldn't have felt so cheap.

    I'm fairly certain they will try to do something more interesting with that branch of the story (the alternative of just following Jeyne's story is just too ghastly), I suppose I just have less faith that they'll make it good and meaningful.

  8. #608
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    I was watching the episode with a friend (who doesn't follow GoT) and as soon as it was clear the wedding was taking place I told her that "ouch, this is going to be bad", so it's not as if the last scene was a big surprise in itself. I wasn't expecting Sansa to suddenly backflip and kick Ramsay out of a window and I knew Theon wouldn't intervene. Had they at least spent some time showing Sansa actually trying to accomplish something before the wedding, even if it failed and the outcome was the same, then the whole thing wouldn't have felt so cheap.
    That's something I'll certainly agree on and it's been my issue with the season thus far. Too many characters, not enough time. They need to either find a way to film more episodes per season or get the seasons out quicker. From my understanding of the books, he split the same timeline into two books, one book each exclusively following specific characters? They should I think, follow suit in the show, maybe make it more than ten episodes and alternate each episode between a set cast of characters. So many aren't getting to do anything because 50 minutes a week isn't enough time to have all these stories going on. There are even characters who are still out there that have stories going on that haven't shown up in this season yet.
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  9. #609
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    From my understanding of the books, he split the same timeline into two books, one book each exclusively following specific characters?
    Yup! The 4th book centers mainly around King's Landing and the Lannisters, whilst the 5th book focuses around Dorne, the North and the lands outside Westeros. They both take place in the same timelines, and GRRM drops some really neat teasers that way.

    And I agree with both Jesus and Skalpadda here: The way the episodes are currently structured doesn't allow for any fleshing out; a problem that rears it's ugly head when GoT displays mature topics. I think I'll stop here though, because I am sounding like a broken record at this point :-p
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  10. #610
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    I touched on this before, but my problem isn't this incident of rape in isolation, but the fact that Sansa has no sensible motivation to accept being there at all - that's the context which makes me think it's cheap and gratuitous. Littlefinger manipulated her into accepting the marriage with a speech of revenge without there being any reason to think she'll be able to enact that revenge. The plan he lays out for her is to just bide her time waiting for Stannis to liberate Winterfell and name her Wardeness (in which case not feeding her to the psychotic maniacs and subjecting her to the risks of a battle would have seemed more sensible), alternatively she's to bide her time and work the Boltons from within because apparently she's a master manipulator now, which we've seen none of beyond her testimony after Lysa's death. It's weak characterisation at best and character assassination in service of gratuitous cruelty at worst.
    Please people, read the article Kad posted previously.

    Quote Originally Posted by the article
    Why didn’t Sansa hulk out? “There’s also the question of Sansa’s agency, which until recently had been increasing by the day. Urged on by Littlefinger (which, ugh — more on him in a second), Sansa willingly agreed to marry Ramsay to avenge her family, only to revert to a more passive stance and ultimately pay a terrible price. It was awesome to see Sansa stand her ground against Myranda, but what a step backward for her to then be raped offscreen as we ‘watched’ through Theon’s eyes.”

    I have to say this argument is the one that personally hurts me the most, because it relies on the ugly and sexist belief that being a victim of sexual assault means you are weak or lack agency. The notion that Sansa is weak or somehow failed herself by getting raped is victim-blaming, flat out. As Laura Bradley at Slate noted, it’s arguable that this whole storyline shows how strong Sansa is, because she went into this with open eyes and a will to survive—and to try to take Winterfell back.


    More to the point, this line of argumentation assumes that responsibility for rape belongs to the victim, for not fighting back hard enough. Nope nope and nope. This plot actually laid out how rape is a structural and cultural issue. Sansa cannot get out of this by running or fighting, because there are guards and an entire society around her that believes she is Ramsay’s property and will return her to him if she runs. The notion that she’s somehow weak or lacking agency because she can’t hulk out and destroy millennia of tradition or even just a couple dozen guards is just wrong. I enjoy a fantasy of a woman whipping ass and taking names as much as anyone else. But this is a different story, a story of a woman showing strength and agency by working within the system. Which is also an interesting story and no less a story of strength and agency.


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  11. #611
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    Please people, read the article Kad posted previously.
    That argument is nonsense as a response to what I've been saying since it treats Sansa's agreement to wed Ramsey as either an inevitability (it may well have been but it is not presented that way to Sansa) or a decision that was in some way rational and sane. If there had been a red thread from surrendering herself to the Boltons through to exacting revenge and regaining the North that wasn't utterly lunatic then yes, that would work, but there isn't, so the defence as presented just misses the point.

    Trying to somehow bend criticism of poor character motivation into being slut shaming for the results of that bad writing is also an extraordinarily dishonest bit of sophistry from the author there.

  12. #612
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Wenz's Avatar
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    Spoilerscloseyoureyes
    Thinking of Dany and her brother it was covered and short term stuff. Yes she made baratheon shit himself (that's ages ago:0 ) after becoming queen, she still makes practical mistakes and will never get a king (he'd probably die for the third time counting her brother as number one), things changed on a macro level in time. Can't see Sansa lasting as long since she doesn't have a past with poisons big enough to become a killer and she can't really force anyone to spare people in exchange of a night with her (to actually use sex as weapon, Idk if ramsey has fallen in love, I read he raped her). I stopped watching at ep4 but I thought there was something going on with little finger? It's a soap
    Last edited by Wenz; 21-05-2015 at 07:15 PM.

  13. #613
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    Trying to somehow bend criticism of poor character motivation into being slut shaming for the results of that bad writing is also an extraordinarily dishonest bit of sophistry from the author there.
    I guess Martin is to blame then, given the attendance of Theon at Ramsey's wedding night is in the books. All the showrunners have done is stay true to the source material. Case closed.
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  14. #614
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    If there had been a red thread from surrendering herself to the Boltons through to exacting revenge and regaining the North that wasn't utterly lunatic then yes, that would work, but there isn't, so the defence as presented just misses the point.
    Emphasis mine.

    How do you know this? For all we know Sansa will have a boy and subsequently remove or have removed the Boltons from the picture, likely with help from everyone in the north not directly beholden to the Boltons. She has already been promised support by people within Winterfell. She can then raise this child as a Stark and not a Bolton and avenge her murdered family.

    I don't see it as utterly lunatic given that she likely believes she'll get assistance from Littlefinger and the people of the Vale, many of whom have some loyalty to the Stark family through Sansa's aunt and cousin (certainly more than to Littlefinger). We know Littlefinger has (at least professed) other plans, but Sansa does not know this.

    And no, I don't know that any of this will happen, which is why I withhold judgment until the situation in the North is resolved (if ever).

    As others have said here it's a bit premature to write her off (as use of the word surrender most certainly does). I don't see it as Sansa losing any agency, I see it as her finally taking her place in the Game.
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  15. #615
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    As others have said here it's a bit premature to write her off (as use of the word surrender most certainly does). I don't see it as Sansa losing any agency, I see it as her finally taking her place in the Game.
    Indeed there's far more opportunity for her to be a true player in the game as Ramsey's wife at Winterfell, where she has a position, than have her moping around the Fingers as in the book.
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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Wenz's Avatar
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    Sometimes I wonder but I always forget to ask, what does "burn them all" mean? Does it refere to eggs or what?
    Last edited by Wenz; Yesterday at 01:29 AM.

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    I was going to post again last night, but I think it's just rehashing the same points at this point. I think Fumarole, Jesus and Kadayi have pretty much summed up my views.
    I find it odd that people are judging what happened based mostly on their own idea of what sansa's story arc was "supposed to be".

  18. #618
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I guess Martin is to blame then, given the attendance of Theon at Ramsey's wedding night is in the books. All the showrunners have done is stay true to the source material. Case closed.
    I must say, I don't get why this particular reply follows that particular quote. Skalpadda's argument always was about Sansa, not Theon, and the quoted criticism is about the article you linked. I fail to see how either the showrunners or Martin are to blame for awfull rhetoric on the article's part.

    Regardless of the argument made however, please do not go "Case closed" on people, it gets awfully close to backseat moderation.
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