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  1. #321
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    The moment people start talking about racing games/online communities within those and then says "DLC" - I see their game in the trash bin...

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMacdoanld View Post
    I think the trouble with Project Cars as it stands at the moment (remaining technical issues aside) is that a lot of the content that won't actually be there for the release is currently in the development builds in various stages of progress. Pick the wrong car/track combination and it's easy to assume that the whole game is the same. At some point (soon?) they'll have to start trimming out the DLC and concentrating on polishing the material that will be present on release.

    Huh? They're going to take cars that are currently in the game out so that they can sell them as DLC?

    Yeah that's gonna work out well for them...

  3. #323
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    That seems to be the plan. The base game will come with a broad selection but if your interest is Touring cars you'll be able to buy a pack for that. Same for Nascar etc.

    The game isn't released yet so everything is still in development and if it's being developed, they let the community play with it. Good for testing but it does raise some expectations.

  4. #324
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    Their funding model was always dodgy - if they resort to taking stuff away from people (everyone having already, effectively, 'paid' for it to some degree) that's not going to end well, surely?

    The thing people want - it seems to me - is a 'GT/Forza-like' game on the PC. That means lots of tracks and LOTS of real-world cars to drive. I'm sure people won't mind some DLC content but they'll have to be VERY careful how they approach that.

    For me, any game with an online multiplayer aspect cannot easily deal with DLC without pissing people off and killing the community - they just don't mix.

    The only reason GT and Forza can do it is that they have a massive, captive audience and no real competition...
    Last edited by trjp; 21-07-2014 at 11:35 PM.

  5. #325
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    So.. today is the start of week 13 in iRacing land, which means the updates get rolled out today. Early indications are it'll be a low-key release with just the new content and a few tweaks to the tyre model, with the next couple of updates in 3 and 6 months time being bigger. As usual week 13 fun races are in operation (figure 8 racing + racing at Laguna seca with a very odd mix of car classes, no safety rating in effect so expect half the field to be out by lap 2) so it's not a time to get involved in serious racing, but next Tuesday it'll all be back to normal.

    RF2 has just had an update too, again mostly a bugfix release.

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    For me, any game with an online multiplayer aspect cannot easily deal with DLC without pissing people off and killing the community - they just don't mix.
    Other games haven't exactly been free of DLC though, have they? I've lost count of the number of Race07 addins I purchased and doesn't iRacing require you to buy cars and tracks individually? Does RFactor2 still charge annually for multiplayer?

  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMacdoanld View Post
    Other games haven't exactly been free of DLC though, have they? I've lost count of the number of Race07 addins I purchased and doesn't iRacing require you to buy cars and tracks individually? Does RFactor2 still charge annually for multiplayer?
    RF2 charges annually for multiplayer capability ($12) but there is also the option of purchasing lifetime access. Given that the likely lifetime of the game is at least 7 or 8 more years (sims last a long time) and they'll be maintaining the game and the matchmaking servers I don't see a huge problem with that. It incentivises continued development with the game including the constant stream of new content and physics/performance/graphics upgrades.

  8. #328
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    Race07's business model was selling big(ish) chunks of DLC on a semi-annual basis - it's not the same as offering a lot of 'packs' of DLC from Day 1 really...

    iRacing charges for access to regulated, dedicated servers/leagues and the cars/tracks therein required - and they are aimed at a very specific market

    All a bit different to saying "if you want car x you have to pay this - car Y this and so on" - it's not just the money aspect, it's the "how many other people will have it" aspect too

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    Race07's business model was selling big(ish) chunks of DLC on a semi-annual basis - it's not the same as offering a lot of 'packs' of DLC from Day 1 really...
    The assumption here being that that is indeed giong to happen.


  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    Race07's business model was selling big(ish) chunks of DLC on a semi-annual basis - it's not the same as offering a lot of 'packs' of DLC from Day 1 really...

    iRacing charges for access to regulated, dedicated servers/leagues and the cars/tracks therein required - and they are aimed at a very specific market

    All a bit different to saying "if you want car x you have to pay this - car Y this and so on" - it's not just the money aspect, it's the "how many other people will have it" aspect too
    Indeed yes that is an issue for online racing, splitting the community is bad. It's a bit tricky even on iRacing as we see tracks owned by fewer members get lower participation which leads to people not buying them which leads to low participation ad infinitum (that said for popular series you'll still always get a race and less popular series will still typically offer a couple of slots in your preferred timezone).

    It's a tough balance to strike as really it's important to set up the business model to align the interests of the creator with those of the customers (ie we want ongoing development, new content, etc). Strictly speaking that only works if there is then an ongoing input of funds to fund ongoing maintenance [ie physics models, new features] and when each new piece of content created earns money to cover the cost of its creation [ie cars and tracks cost a lot to build right]. It does then lead to sub plus content charge but there is definitely a participation downside.

  11. #331
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    iRacing update release notes for anyone interested in that kind of thing. iRacing is about to go down for the 4 hour maintenance period after which all this will be available.

    Website:

    Leagues
    - Enhanced League and Tournament Gridding Options:
    There is now a new grid algorithm called "Top N Inverted". If you select this and click the "Apply Grid Now" button you will be prompted to enter the number of drivers to invert. Previously you were limited to inverting the top 8 or top 10 drivers.
    There is now an option to change a driver's grid position by N positions in either direction. This is intended to make it easier to apply grid penalties. From the "Race Grid Setup" area of the grid builder you can right-click on any driver to access a new popup menu that includes an option to "change grid position". This opens a dialog box where you can enter a number of positions to move the driver. Positive numbers will move the driver towards the pole and negative numbers will move the driver towards the back of the grid.
    - Added a new interface for editing league member nicknames.

    Race Panel
    - Sorting of series has been fixed in the Race Panel pick list where they may have been out of order or miscounted.
    - The Select list now lists series based on MPR.

    Other
    - Updated MPR Images and added tooltips.
    - MPR images are now hidden for Class A License and above.
    - Spectator pages now have smarter sorting of what's available.
    - Layering of elements in the main site has been adjusted to fix some display issues.

    Simulation:

    Tires
    - There are no cars left using the version 4 NTM (New Tire Model). All the cars are on version 5 except the Silver Crown and Sprint Car which are both still using the old tire model.
    - The tire model has an improved solver to find the amount of tread yaw under dynamic conditions (i.e. non-equilibrium). This has significantly improved transient behavior and tire response to changing loads.
    - The modeling of tread wear depth and its effects has been improved. There is now more tread wear on the softer road compounds.
    - There is a preliminary model for advancing the tread rubber cure as the rubber gets hot; this gives very reasonable lap time fall off for cars over the course of a race. This model is not enabled on all the cars yet, as there hasn't been time for testing all the cars, but it is on all the high level oval cars and most of the faster road course cars.

    User Interface
    - Right clicking on any visible driver name or driver helmet will bring up a context menu of actions that can be applied to that driver.

    Sound
    - Disable using the recently added limiter layer sounds during ignition cut up shifts.

    iRacing Telemetry API
    - Output RadioTransmitRadioIdx and RadioTransmitFrequencyIdx in addition to RadioTransmitCarIdx.
    - Output ClassPosition in QualifyResultsInfo section to match ResultsPositions.
    - Output CarClassColor.
    - Output car, suit, helmet paint info.
    - Properly escape more strings in the YAML session string.
    - Properly show pressure in telemetry when pressure based brake bias is used.
    - Fix telemetry for steering angle on remote cars.

    Cameras
    - The driving camera can now be moved down 4" instead of just 2".

    Backfires
    - Many cars will now spit out backfire flames when appropriate. Some cars backfire when off throttle, depending on their engine tuning. Others will backfire if you hit the rev limiter or upshift if their engine tuning implements these features via an ignition cut (which passes unburned fuel through to the exhaust). And some of our cars don't make flames at all, typically the lower level cars. The visual effect and the sound effect of backfires are not synchronized at this time. Also, opponent cars do not make backfires during upshifts at this time, only off throttle backfires.

    Wind
    - Reduce the strength of the wind applying to cars to 1/3, so even if the wind says 30mph, it will only affect the car at 10mph. This is to account for ground turbulence and non-wind transparency of solid objects reducing the effective wind strength at ground level.

    Grime
    - Cars will now accumulate grime as a race progresses. The amount is based upon both time and circumstances of the race. This new grime effect causes a dulling of the car, which combines with the dirt accumulation effect which was added previously.

    Paint kit
    - L.A. Racing, SimCraft, and diysim.com logos added.
    - Wheel color support added to the Mazda MX5, Skip Barber Formula 2000, Legends Ford '34 Coupe, and Street Stock.

    Scenic Cameras
    - Half of the tracks had their scenic cameras improved (or added if missing) in the previous season's update. This update completes that work, with all tracks addressed.

    Cars:

    Chevrolet Camaro Class B
    - Now available! The physics are identical to the other two Class B cars, and all 3 cars can load each others setups.

    BMW GT3 Z4
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - Performance has been balanced against the other GT3 class cars.

    Cadillac CTS-V Racecar
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Chevrolet Corvette C6R
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Chevrolet Impala Class B
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Chevrolet Impala-COT
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - More front spring range.

    Chevrolet National Impala
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Chevrolet Silverado
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Chevrolet SS-Gen6
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - Cockpit updated to match new Camaro dash.

    Dallara IndyCar
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Dallara DW12 IndyCar
    - Full version of the car is now here, supporting all different track types.
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Ford Falcon V8 Supercar
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Ford Fusion-Gen6
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Ford GT
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - Fixed a traction control bug. The setting range was from 0 to 5, but should have been (and is now) from 0 to 2.

    Ford Mustang Class B
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - Two new patterns added.

    Ford Mustang FR500S
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    HPD ARX-01c
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - Now has 4-way adjustable shocks; low and high speed bump and rebound.

    Kia Optima
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Legends Ford '34 Coupe
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - Updated engine sounds to sound better when listening from a distance.
    - Wheels can now be painted.

    Lotus 49
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - Mass and inertia have been completely recalculated. Car has gained approximately 20 kg, and all inertias increased significantly.

    Lotus 79
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Mazda MX-5 Cup
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - Updated engine sounds to sound better when listening from a distance.
    - Wheels can now be painted.

    Mazda MX-5 Roadster
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - Add distant external sound layer.
    - Wheels can now be painted.

    McLaren MP4-12C GT3
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - Performance has been balanced against the other GT3 class cars.

    Modified - SK
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Modified - Tour
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Pontiac Solstice
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - Updated engine sounds to sound better when listening from a distance.

    Radical SR8
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Riley Daytona Prototype
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - New engine torque map directly from an engine dyno.
    - Reduce minimum front ride height to 1.5"
    - Lower the minimum splitter height.

    Ruf RT 12R AWD
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Ruf RT 12R C-Spec
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - Now has 4-way adjustable shocks; low and high speed bump and rebound.

    Ruf RT 12R RWD
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Ruf RT 12R Track
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - Now has 4-way adjustable shocks; low and high speed bump and rebound.
    - Performance has been balanced against the other GT3 class cars.

    Skip Barber Formula 2000
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - Wheels can now be painted.

    Spec Racer Ford
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Star Mazda
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Street Stock
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - Wheels can now be painted.

    Super Late Model
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Toyota Camry-Gen6
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    VW Jetta TDI Cup
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.

    Williams-Toyota FW31
    - Updated to the latest tire physics.
    - Now has lap time fall off from additional tire curing when the tires are hot.
    - Adjustments and improvements to the whole car's physics to match the new tire model.
    - Reduce fuel fill time deviation.

    Tracks:

    Donington Park Racing Circuit
    - Donington Park Racing Circuit is now available.
    - Includes two configurations: GP and National.
    - This new track includes 3D crowd characters and 3D animated camera operators. These models will appear in race sessions if Object and Crowd are set to high in options.

    Phoenix International Raceway
    - This is an all new version of Phoenix based on changes which were made to the track in 2012. The new oval is very different from the previous, including changes which widened the front straight to 62 feet (19 meters), repaved the pit stalls with concrete and moved the dogleg outward by 95 ft (29 m) while increasing its radius to 500 ft (150 m) and changing its banking to 10-11 degrees. In addition, the track changed to progressive banking in Turns 1 and 2 while Turns 3 and 4 were changed to 8-9 degrees in banking and an infield road course was removed, making PIR an oval-only facility.
    - Includes two configurations: one that does not allow cutting of the dogleg apron area, and one that does allow full use of the dogleg apron.
    - This new track includes 3D crowd characters and 3D animated camera operators. These models will appear in race sessions if Object and Crowd are set to high in options.

    Auto Club Speedway
    - Fixed a bug where terrain was poking through wall.
    - A bumpy area in the infield road course is fixed.

    Autodromo Jose Carlos Pace
    - Adjusted some 1x areas for consistency (such as the blue painted area to the right of the final turn).

    Circuit Gilles Villeneuve
    - Remove pit crew objects from pit road as the road is too narrow to fit them.

    Circuit of the Americas
    - Fixed draw-through signs on the garage.
    - Added pit boxes.
    - Moved the sign guy out of wall.

    Circuit Zolder
    - Fixed several track geometry bugs.

    Homestead Miami Speedway
    - Moved pit crew out of wall.

    Iowa Speedway
    - Fixed a wall collision issue.

    Michigan International Raceway
    - Fixed a non-collidable wall in Turn 1.

    Phoenix International Raceway circa 2008
    - The old version of Phoenix has been re-named to differentiate between it and the new version.

    Road America
    - The outside of Turn 5 now gives a 1x.

    Silverstone Circuit
    - Fixed a badly defined segment of track that could crash the sim for everyone connected if someone drove over that one exact spot.
    - Fixed pot holes that where between turns 2 and 3.

    Sonoma Raceway
    - Fixed a light so its shadow starts at the ground.
    - Fixed a sunken jersey barrier.

    Suzuka International Racing Course
    - Fixed issues that caused weird camera and F3 black box behavior near the crossover.

    Thompson International Speedway
    - Updated for night racing.
    - Track updated with new logo.
    Last edited by hariseldon; 22-07-2014 at 02:15 PM.

  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    The assumption here being that that is indeed giong to happen.
    Given that (probably?) most of the announced content for PCars hasn't even been started yet and it's slated for release in a few months, the DLC will be an ongoing thing.

  13. #333
    Network Hub Makariel's Avatar
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    iRacing at its best:

    currently playing: Assetto Corsa
    Steam/GFWL/PSN: namefinder

    Join our racing games subforum! Going wide and braking late since 1886!

  14. #334
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    Yeah the landmines can be a little annoying. I do wish they'd fix them.

  15. #335
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus neema_t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    For me, any game with an online multiplayer aspect cannot easily deal with DLC without pissing people off and killing the community - they just don't mix.

    The only reason GT and Forza can do it is that they have a massive, captive audience and no real competition...
    Are you suggesting GT doesn't handle DLC well? In GT5 you could race with people who have DLC you don't own, that includes Spa and Motegi (doesn't matter now as it has been shut down), while GT6 hasn't had any DLC that wasn't free except the anniversary car pack. As for Forza, I think the free car DLC was basically a compatibility pack so you could play with people who had bought DLC you hadn't, I remember the one pack I bought on FM3 was a tiny key file download while the free car was several hundred MB. If only Simbin had taken one of these approaches with Race 07...

    As for Project CARS, I was aware they were going to take some of the cars away for use as DLC and I hardly ever visit the forums. I'm sure most people are aware and if they really don't like it they're still able to get a refund I think. I'm probably going to end up buying all of the Project CARS DLC anyway so as long as they don't remove both the M1 Procar and Zakspeed Capri I'll be ok.


    On a completely different note, I tried the Ruf RT12 and the 320 Turbo on the Raceroom Hillclimb and also the IMSA Audi at Suzuka last night (on RR:RE) and actually had fun, unlike the first few times I played using the Aquila and whatever that other fake car is. The handling doesn't feel quite right, the sounds are iffy (great when they're good but the Audi gets awfully quiet when you shift, there's almost no noise whatsoever) and the lack of multiplayer is a shitter, but it might improve. It might not, I'm not a scientist so I couldn't say, but I think there's promise.

  16. #336
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    I am still baffled why there is no direct multiplayer in RaceRoom...
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  17. #337
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    I mentioned earlier - GT and Forza have some licence to throw DLC at people "because they are massive and have almost no competition" - and because, if we're honest, the majority of people don't actually play those games online as much as - say - something like iRacing where online racing is the main thing.

    DLC in a racing game is an issue IMO - esp if it's Day 1 and there's a lot of it - it actively deters me from bothering with a game (not just racing ones) - I'll just wait for the GOTY plx thx

  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepper View Post
    I am still baffled why there is no direct multiplayer in RaceRoom...
    It's taking a weirdly large amount of time - I know it's in the DTM stuff but it's just plain odd how they're marketting Raceroom.

    I've spent a bit of time (more than Steam admits) - I've driven most of the cars and tracks - I've spent nowt - I have no idea what's taking them so long to actually put the RACE into Raceroom...

  19. #339
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMacdoanld View Post
    Given that (probably?) most of the announced content for PCars hasn't even been started yet and it's slated for release in a few months, the DLC will be an ongoing thing.
    I am talking specifically about "DAY 1" DLC here. DLC itself happening is inevetable.


  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makariel View Post
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