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  1. #21
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Rii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Frankly, even if the Japanese secretly developed nuclear weapon (I cannot be sure if they do it or not, CIA knows the answer), they have good reason to. All they want is true national independence. No matter how great their economic power is, Japan is still an American puppet state. Financial disaster in late 1980s has proved that what the Americans granted them, Americans could take back too. The "Loss Decade" (and up to this day it has been two decades and more) has destroyed Japanese morale.
    I'm one of very few who are predicting that Japan will select the Typhoon over the Super Hornet or F-35 to replace its F-4s. One of the reasons for that prediction being that it would serve to signal Japan's independence from Washington, where a variety of circumstances conspire to make doing so at this time and in this fashion a particularly attractive prospect.

    Needless to say 98% of the internet disagrees with me. But then I was right about India so y'all sceptics better watch out. ;)

  2. #22
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sinister agent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Well, they did decide to deliberately attack the US and join with the Axis powers. That doesn't necessarily justify the subsequent nuking, destruction and occupation of Japan at the end of the war, but it's a bit ridiculous to lump "foreign invasion" (or civil war for that matter) with things like earthquakes and tsunamis.
    No it isn't. The effects of the invasion and general war stress, plus the atomic thing, were still very difficult for the country to deal with, regardless of how they came about. It's perfectly valid to list them in the same sentence in that context.

    They weren't natural disasters, true, but they were still disasters for the country.

  3. #23
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinister agent View Post
    They weren't natural disasters, true, but they were still disasters for the country.
    You could make that argument but most often "disasters" are the result of nature or man-made hazards through negligence. The use of atomic weapons is an act of war and thus should be labelled as such. I never claimed that they weren't difficult to deal with (they were much worse given that the country was in war economy mode at the time) but they're not in the same category as natural disasters or hazards created by negligence. Japan's hierarchy chose to go to war. They didn't choose an earthquake, or a tsunami.

    Again I'm not saying that it justifies what the US did nor that it makes it any easier to deal with for the citizens, but acts of war are in a different class from natural disasters. They're deliberate acts motivated by human minds.

  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    This discussion is taking a turn for the perverse, and it started by sounding like the ravings of a Chinese kid with an axe to grind.

    I mean, you could say that the US was not justified in deliberately targeting population centers (tho the atomic bombs weren't the worst bombing Japan had seen), but then you can say that the civilian deaths Japan received weren't even a tenth of the civilian deaths Japan inflicted.

    Not that it matters in this case, at any rate, except to say that Japan has significant experience not only in dealing with earthquakes and tsunamis, but also fallout and wholesale urban destruction. That being said, Russia doesn't seem to give a shit, and Russia knows a thing or two about fallout, so I suppose we're fine until Godzilla rises from the depths.
    Last edited by Nalano; 14-09-2011 at 05:20 AM.
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  5. #25
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Whoa, I was totally trying to avoid a discussion about whether or not the deployment of atomic weapons was necessary or not! I was just commenting on the differences between an act of war and a natural disaster or human-caused accident.

    That being said, Russia doesn't seem to give a shit, and Russia knows a thing or two about fallout, so I suppose we're fine until Godzilla rises from the depths.
    There's a Soviet Russia joke in here somewhere...

  6. #26
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Come on, Nalano, it's radiation we are talking about, not something we can take lightly.

    And since you are living an the East coast, I dont know what's happening to the US West coast, but the whole Pacific has been polluted with radiation by our beloved Japs.
    All talk on radiation should be viewed with scepticism. There might be radiation from japan in the pacific, but even if it is well above normal levels, it does not mean that it also well above safe levels (since, say, some Cesium isotopes are almost never found in nature at all, the presence of some cesium isotopes in the athmosspehre means an increase of 300 times normal values. That does not mean that those 300 times normal values are actually dangerous.

    Its like saying that a million people died from Chernobyl or something... where the hell did those rumors come from?

  7. #27
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    - Tom De Roeck.

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  8. #28
    Activated Node Whitmore's Avatar
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    *Points at the Sun* See that? Yeah. It could explode, or go out at any second. We do not know enough about it to really understand how it works, how it functions or how much longer it'll exist. We have estimates, but we really don't know enough.

    It could go out. Or explode. Or, you know, another Galaxy could crash into ours.. Or the Univerise could implode. A small explosion at a French plant? Eh, minimal in comparision to the Celestial dangers.

    Also, Asteroids.

    Oh, and a flare from the Sun could theoretically fry all electronics on the planet, if i remember how it works.. Or just cook us.

    So, yeah. 2012? Eh, it could happen tommrow.

    Oh, and the whole 2012 thing? Why.. did they even have a Calender that went that far? I just assume they thought "You know what? We don't really need one that goes that far.. We'll stop now and make a new one later."

    That, or they trolled us.

  9. #29
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    The worst scenario would be Tokyo becoming uninhabitable.
    Unless you somehow manage to detonate a chernobyl-style reactor inside Tokyo, that simply won't happen.

    The important bit from that guardian article
    Chernobyl offers a closer comparison. The accident in the former Soviet Union left 134 cleanup workers with acute radiation sickness. Twenty-eight died within a year. Millions more were exposed to lower doses and a wide area of Belarus and northern Europe was contaminated. In a follow-up study 20 years later, the WHO concluded the accident caused an additional 4,000 cancer deaths – about 4% higher than the normal rate – among the 626,000 most highly exposed people. For those exposed to lower levels of radiation, it estimated that cancer fatalities would rise by about 0.6%. The organisation also noted Russian studies showing increased risk of heart disease and cataracts, but it found no evidence of an impact on fertility, miscarriages or birth defects.
    Given that Fukushima has released a tenth of the radiation of Chernobyl and taken greater steps to prevent contamination through milk, this would suggest Japan must brace for hundreds – rather than thousands – of extra cancer cases and births may not be as much of a problem as many believe.
    Which is the major problem: Many believe that it is a much bigger then it actually is. When west-coast americans started swallowing jodium tablets, they put themselves at a much higher risk for health problems (due to jodium poisining due to the overdoses of Jodium) then they would when they didn't.

    The risks accosiated with nuclear meltdowns for the general populace not in the exclusion zones is much, much less worse then say, the presence of a coal plant.
    Last edited by Grizzly; 14-09-2011 at 11:36 AM.

  10. #30
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    This discussion is taking a turn for the perverse, and it started by sounding like the ravings of a Chinese kid with an axe to grind.
    We took the first hit (or Koreans would think we took just second hit, and both we and South Koreans were in a shopping rush for salt almost immediately after the incident, mistakenly thought Iodine could fight radiation. I personally is more concerned of pollution of sea salt supply). Of course we have the right to be angry. You consider us (or me actually since I represent only myself only) to be overreacting, but I consider us to have the right to blame those who increase our health risk. And some of other suggest that China, being a state of source of pollution, has no right to blame the others. To me it's more ironical for the fact China is a world factory. Most of our exporting industries are exporting to you westerners / Japanese. Manufacturing industries would of course generate pollution, just like what Europeans, Americans and Japanese did in 19th / 20th centuries. Furthermore, most of our exporting are actually controlled by westerners and Japanese. Of course you dont directly own our industries, you outsource your most polluting processes of production to us, and let us pollute our own land, and neighboring lands, and then we take the blame. How convenient is that?

    Talking about response of Russia. It's kinda funny. Weeks after 3/11 a Russian Tu95 bomber violated Japanese airspace, obviously to test Japanese military's response time after the disastor. And horribly it took hours for Japanese military to send two F15 to intercept the bomber - after the bomber had circled around the whole Japan once. Seems some other thing than radiation caught the polar bear's attention.

    And guess if someone warn you about the danger of GM food you would also call that someone an alarmist, huh?

    P.S. I suggest that the risk of visiting west of Osaka being minimum (not saying it's safe), is for the fact it's water supplied has not been report to be contaminated. Right one day in Tokyo is like taking an X-ray scan, and obviously you won't normally take X-ray scan everyday, right? I dont know about your hospitals, but in hospitals over here, corridor outside X-ray scanning room would be cleared while in operation. And of course, doctors here still promised us that health risk of X-ray is "at minimum".
    Last edited by squirrel; 14-09-2011 at 01:19 PM.

  11. #31
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Wolfenswan's Avatar
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    And some of other suggest that China, being a state of source of pollution, has no right to blame the others.
    straw-man, much? no one here even mentioned pollution besides you.

    Weeks after 3/11 a Russian Tu95 bomber violated Japanese airspace, obviously to test Japanese military's response time after the disastor.
    Russia has been conducting arial patrols in the region for ages now and have always been criticized for it.

    Chief of the Russian General Staff Nikolay Makarov said September 12 that despite complaints from a number of countries, Russia is not going to stop patrols of its strategic bombers.
    “The Americans fly where and when they want, so we will also continue our strategic aviation flights, despite notes from some countries,” RIA Novosti cited Makarov.
    On September 9, two Russian TU-95 bombers flew over Japanese territory, raising the ire of Japanese authorities.

    http://pik.tv/en/news/story/18651-ru...ategic-flights
    Last edited by Wolfenswan; 14-09-2011 at 01:31 PM.

  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfenswan View Post
    straw-man, much? no one here even mentioned pollution besides you.
    Nope, I am not saying Nalano said this. That's in Lukasz's post.

  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    We took the first hit (or Koreans would think we took just second hit, and both we and South Koreans were in a shopping rush for salt almost immediately after the incident, mistakenly thought Iodine could fight radiation. I personally is more concerned of pollution of sea salt supply). Of course we have the right to be angry. You consider us (or me actually since I represent only myself only) to be overreacting, but I consider us to have the right to blame those who increase our health risk. And some of other suggest that China, being a state of source of pollution, has no right to blame the others. To me it's more ironical for the fact China is a world factory. Most of our exporting industries are exporting to you westerners / Japanese. Manufacturing industries would of course generate pollution, just like what Europeans, Americans and Japanese did in 19th / 20th centuries. Furthermore, most of our exporting are actually controlled by westerners and Japanese. Of course you dont directly own our industries, you outsource your most polluting processes of production to us, and let us pollute our own land, and neighboring lands, and then we take the blame. How convenient is that?
    didnt you say that your country is a communist, your government controls everything? so its your fault. and I am saying that just being outside in Chinese city is waaaay more dangerous than what you might have got from Japan. Furthermore Poland received waaaay more radiation from Chernobyl in 86 and there is no evidence whatsoever of it. Swallowing iodine was more problematic than anything from Cheronobyl.
    What I am basically saying:
    you got more health risks because of your industry than anything Japan might have contributed. Simply there is no reason to worry about Japanese meltodown as it won't do anything.
    Talking about response of Russia. It's kinda funny. Weeks after 3/11 a Russian Tu95 bomber violated Japanese airspace, obviously to test Japanese military's response time after the disastor. And horribly it took hours for Japanese military to send two F15 to intercept the bomber - after the bomber had circled around the whole Japan once. Seems some other thing than radiation caught the polar bear's attention.
    What the hell are you talking about?

    And guess if someone warn you about the danger of GM food you would also call that someone an alarmist, huh?
    Of course I would. Give me some hard science from respectable source not someone's rambling about something he does not know. You better provide some links to at least half of your points from respectful sources
    P.S. I suggest that the risk of visiting west of Osaka being minimum (not saying it's safe), is for the fact it's water supplied has not been report to be contaminated. Right one day in Tokyo is like taking an X-ray scan, and obviously you won't normally take X-ray scan everyday, right? I dont know about your hospitals, but in hospitals over here, corridor outside X-ray scanning room would be cleared while in operation. And of course, doctors here still promised us that health risk of X-ray is "at minimum".
    One day in tokyo is like taking an xray scan. Source. You need to give us a source of that info. Otherwise you are just making that up.
    and like I said:
    visiting Osaka's towns, villages is safer than staying back home in bejing, nyc, berlin, london, HK, seul etc.

    And I have a question. Do you discourage foreigners from visiting your country?
    Last edited by Lukasz; 14-09-2011 at 02:38 PM.

  14. #34
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    How convenient is that?
    I really have no idea what this argument has to do with anything. Your country wanted to expand its economy and created opportunities, which people took up. It's like here in Australia how we mine anything we can find, which China invariably buys. Plenty of people here whinge that it's contributing to global warming, but it's still just business that helps keep the country's economy in such a strong position.

    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Weeks after 3/11 a Russian Tu95 bomber violated Japanese airspace, obviously to test Japanese military's response time after the disastor. [...] Seems some other thing than radiation caught the polar bear's attention.
    Like Wolfenswan said this isn't new or interesting information. Who knows what Russia's up to? I doubt it has anything to do with imperialism or warmongering though. Lots of people here try to accuse China of similar designs, to the point of some people suggesting that China would love to invade Australia for the mineral wealth. That stands as long as it takes someone to point out that it's simply cheaper and easier to buy it and stay at home. I think a similar sort of argument stands for Russia's violation of airspace. There's no purpose to going to war.

    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    And guess if someone warn you about the danger of GM food you would also call that someone an alarmist, huh?
    Yes, because most of the warnings are from people who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Until hard science proves there's a danger, the warnings aren't worth the paper they're written on, just like other misinformed opinions like the "widespread dangers of vaccination" or radiation. That's the sad part of the Internet. We've got so much useful information at our fingertips... and yet 20x more pointless, misinformed rhetoric.

    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    P.S. I suggest that the risk of visiting west of Osaka being minimum (not saying it's safe), is for the fact it's water supplied has not been report to be contaminated. Right one day in Tokyo is like taking an X-ray scan, and obviously you won't normally take X-ray scan everyday, right? I dont know about your hospitals, but in hospitals over here, corridor outside X-ray scanning room would be cleared while in operation. And of course, doctors here still promised us that health risk of X-ray is "at minimum".
    If they're clearing the corridor outside a radiography room... then your hospital is terrible and in need of an upgrade. Normally they're shielded to mitigate against risk of continual exposure to radiation, as is likely to be sustained by staff. Or alternatively in emergency departments we wear lead aprons with thyroid protectors, since we can't very well just walk away from a trauma patient simply for an x-ray.

    X-rays are safe. Radiation isn't some mystical force that causes insta-death with a tiny bit of exposure. In an x-ray you're exposed to a very safe dose for a minimal period of time. It's infinitely safer than the alternative, which was taking a random guess or opening the patient up to see what was inside.

  15. #35
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Rii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Talking about response of Russia. It's kinda funny. Weeks after 3/11 a Russian Tu95 bomber violated Japanese airspace, obviously to test Japanese military's response time after the disastor. And horribly it took hours for Japanese military to send two F15 to intercept the bomber - after the bomber had circled around the whole Japan once. Seems some other thing than radiation caught the polar bear's attention.
    I suspect that measuring airborne radioactive particulates is precisely what they were after. Do you have any evidence to suggest that the Tu-95 did in fact violate Japanese airspace? That would be very unusual.

  16. #36
    Network Hub Donjo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitmore View Post
    *Points at the Sun* See that? Yeah. It could explode, or go out at any second. We do not know enough about it to really understand how it works, how it functions or how much longer it'll exist. We have estimates, but we really don't know enough.

    It could go out. Or explode. Or, you know, another Galaxy could crash into ours.. Or the Univerise could implode. A small explosion at a French plant? Eh, minimal in comparision to the Celestial dangers.

    Also, Asteroids.

    Oh, and a flare from the Sun could theoretically fry all electronics on the planet, if i remember how it works.. Or just cook us.

    So, yeah. 2012? Eh, it could happen tommrow.

    Oh, and the whole 2012 thing? Why.. did they even have a Calender that went that far? I just assume they thought "You know what? We don't really need one that goes that far.. We'll stop now and make a new one later."

    That, or they trolled us.
    Being totally fatalistic about the dangers of the universe doesn't mean we should have a blase attitude to all the things that can kill us on earth though.... the universe could disappear tomorrow, fuck it! Imma eat a lump of this Polonium!

  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sinister agent's Avatar
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    Make sure you cook it thoroughly.

  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donjonson View Post
    Being totally fatalistic about the dangers of the universe doesn't mean we should have a blase attitude to all the things that can kill us on earth though.... the universe could disappear tomorrow, fuck it! Imma eat a lump of this Polonium!
    Maybe because it's extremely unlikely that I'm going to be killed by an irradiated piece of sushi or a terrorist attack or a steam pipe bursting under Sixth Avenue, and so taking excessive action to protect myself from these outlier contingencies is a waste of my time and a tax on my mental fortitude.

    Saying "I don't think the Fukushima disaster is going to have much of an effect on me" is not the same as "I'm going to eat this rancid meat and damn the consequences."
    Last edited by Nalano; 14-09-2011 at 07:12 PM.
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  19. #39
    Activated Node WitchfinderG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukasz View Post
    One day in tokyo is like taking an xray scan. Source. You need to give us a source of that info.
    Heh if he manages to give you any source it sure as hell wont be credible. Its bullshit x10.

  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    a steam pipe bursting under Sixth Avenue,
    holy crap. that's pretty hardcore.

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