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  1. #1
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    Exclamation [VS]Outfit Chat 20:00 BST (UTC + 1) Wednesday 4th June 2014

    Timing This event will be happening on 04/06/2014 (4th June) at 20:00 UK time. Click here for your time zone Preamble and context So we were meant to have one of these every month. They're still on the calendar. However we stopped - partly because nobody could be bothered running them, partly because I think quite a few people felt there wasn't anything really to discuss. Recent discontent has made it clear that there is, and perhaps served as a reminder as to why there should be a regular opportunity for people to bring things up. Before launching in to the agenda, I'd like to head off the criticism that these events lead to endless talk and no decisions. That really isn't the case. Outfit chats have been good at rattling through lots of decisions to most people's satisfaction in a relativley short space of time. They bring a finality that forum discussion doesn't really have, partly because the chair can tell whoever the lone objector is that they are on their own, deal with it. There are recordings of previous chats. but I'll be damned if I can remember where I put them. We'll come back to this. Agenda
    1. Inactive Outfit Member Culling - This has come up again recentley, and I'm concerned it could poison/distract from the other, more important issues to come up. So let's try and get it resolved ahead. Previous decisions have been a pretty strong "no", but times may have changed.
    2. State of the Outfit I : Complaints and Troubles - So, it's pretty clear that some people are unahppy about some aspects of the outfit. What aspects are they? Is there agreement on these dissatisfactory aspects?
    3. State of the Outfit II: Reforms and resolution - Hopefully item 2 has given us some agreed on issues. What can we do about them? Equally, there is at least one, possibly more proposals for altering the way the outfit runs, regardless of any specific issues (the idea is that these reforms, even if they don't address any glaring problem, will make things generally better). So we shall listen to these proposals, and decide what to use of any of them.
    4. Optional Bonus Item Website - We really don't make good (or much) use of this. Should we presevere, or just shrink it right down? Unlikely to have time for this.

    As ever, any items you'd like to see added to the agenda, PM me or post in this thread and I'll add them, although I suspect most issues can be left to whatever the outcome of item 4 is.
    Last edited by CMaster; 04-06-2014 at 09:51 AM.

  2. #2
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    Addendum - I've got this thread started to get the ball rolling. This doesn't necessarily mean that I will chair the meeting - and I can understand if given my less measured than it should have been response in a previous thread that I might not be seen as a desirable or fair chair. t

  3. #3
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    If we can't make it, for IRL reasons (in my case, off to Canada with gf), is it still possible to have an input? I have some (probably terrible) ideas I'd like to humbly submit to the Giraffe Elders But I'm not sure if this thread is the best place to submit them as it's probably best to discuss them in the meeting rather than in the thread announcing the meeting.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMaster View Post
    Addendum - I've got this thread started to get the ball rolling. This doesn't necessarily mean that I will chair the meeting - and I can understand if given my less measured than it should have been response in a previous thread that I might not be seen as a desirable or fair chair.
    Should you guys want someone (fairly) impartial to do so, I would be happy to put my name forward. Can send references for meeting chairing capabilities if required.

    (Obvs if you want to keep this in house that's completely understandable.)

  5. #5
    Lesser Hivemind Node Cephas's Avatar
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    An impartial 3rd party for chair could be a nice idea.

  6. #6
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Yay for Boffin! Also happy to see CMaster take the initiative.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guvornator View Post
    If we can't make it, for IRL reasons (in my case, off to Canada with gf), is it still possible to have an input? [...] I'm not sure if this thread is the best place to submit them
    This thread is the best place to submit them.

    It's how we have done it in the past, it does mean an unecessary amount of discussion in this thread which would be better kept for the meeting, but that's not really a problem (or your problem, it's not your input that should be saved for later but all the inevitable replies).

  8. #8
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
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    Suggestions:

    We don't debate item 1. We do it. This is important, StratGir can wait.

    We time-limit point 2. No more than 30 minutes. People give reasons for and against, we make a decision.

    Points 3 and 4 are intimately linked. One of the main reasons for the suggested change is to alleviate this problem. I suggest we replace point 3 to a general 'state of the outfit' discussion during which we make it really clear what outfit members think our strengths and weaknesses are. Those proposing changes can then respond to this by arguing how their suggested change will fix these problems.

    If anything, I think that format will help strengthen any change that we decide to make. Basically, if it's clear we have agreed upon problems and we have an agreed upon solution then the eventual changes will be recieved well.

    And thanks CMaster for pushing this; I stopped pushing for outfit chats after I was away for a few of them and few others seemed to be trying to make them happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by CROCONOUGHTKEY
    KING GEORGE IS A FROG
    le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~—
    OFF
    NOT RUSHMORE MOUNTAIN
    KILL WESTON KILL MUST KILLTHEWESTERNINMYHEADDOESN’TEXSIST
    TEXASISDEADINPARISHEWASAMAN..BINGBING.TETTOHEAD.SP ACEOK,TIMEDEADANDSTOPPED1920HOKKAIDO.UNDERSTOODAT1 ONE.
    UNDERSTANDTHISANDFUCKOFFPIRATEBAY.TIMEDOESNTEXSIST FORMEASIMPATEKPHILLPE.
    BANG

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guvornator View Post
    If we can't make it, for IRL reasons (in my case, off to Canada with gf), is it still possible to have an input? I have some (probably terrible) ideas I'd like to humbly submit to the Giraffe Elders But I'm not sure if this thread is the best place to submit them as it's probably best to discuss them in the meeting rather than in the thread announcing the meeting.
    The point of these chats is that all Giraffes get a say, not just the elders. Of course, that might change after this one. But yeah, put it here, and we'll try to just have someone bring it up at the meeting (someone almost always does) and not talk about it too much now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boffinboots View Post
    Should you guys want someone (fairly) impartial to do so, I would be happy to put my name forward. Can send references for meeting chairing capabilities if required.

    (Obvs if you want to keep this in house that's completely understandable.)
    That's a great offer, and worth considering. I don't think it's necessary - this isn't realy as divisive as some of the heated language (myself a lot to blame for that) has suggested it is though. I'd be prepared to chair it and go with whatever people decided, and I'd have no problem with some of the potential council members chairing either (I think LaKroy may have previously chaired a chat? Not sure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    Suggestions:

    We don't debate item 1. We do it. This is important, StratGir can wait.
    Removed as an item. Consider it done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    Points 3 and 4 are intimately linked. One of the main reasons for the suggested change is to alleviate this problem. I suggest we replace point 3 to a general 'state of the outfit' discussion during which we make it really clear what outfit members think our strengths and weaknesses are. Those proposing changes can then respond to this by arguing how their suggested change will fix these problems.
    I remained to be convinced that they are linked, and wanted to see the argument made that they were. (I can think of various ways you could try to resove one without the other). If the consensus here and now is that they are now, happy enough to change the agenda.

  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMaster View Post
    I remained to be convinced that they are linked, and wanted to see the argument made that they were. (I can think of various ways you could try to resove one without the other). If the consensus here and now is that they are now, happy enough to change the agenda.
    Same here, but they have been presented as such. There are problems, this was put forward as the necessary solution. There may be disagreements about how necessary it is, but it is the context in which this has come about.

    If the proposed change is to solve problems, I don't think it hurts to spend a bit of time actually trying to agree what those problems are so we have a reference point for the proposed solution.

    We could, for the sake of sanity through brevity, skip this discussion part. The forums arebusy with people weighing in on existing problems with the outfit. It seems a shame to simply repeat that in an outfit chat.

    Another suggestion: I'm happy to read through and write a summary of the 'State of the VS' forum over the last couple of weeks. I present this before the meeting by posting it on the forums, people add to it via the forums. On the night I present it, if there are no major disagreements it can serveas a kind of agreed bucket list of issues, at which point we move on to the necessary discussion about the proposed solution.

    It might save us some time going by not needing to go over old discussions and as the issues with the outfit are frustrating, I worry that discussing them will simply bring that feeling to the fore, which is not really conducive to discussion. Whereas a "here's a list of things members think need solving, are they agreed upon? Yes, okay, let's move on" seems more in the spirit of getting on with it, which might help the mood.
    Quote Originally Posted by CROCONOUGHTKEY
    KING GEORGE IS A FROG
    le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~—
    OFF
    NOT RUSHMORE MOUNTAIN
    KILL WESTON KILL MUST KILLTHEWESTERNINMYHEADDOESN’TEXSIST
    TEXASISDEADINPARISHEWASAMAN..BINGBING.TETTOHEAD.SP ACEOK,TIMEDEADANDSTOPPED1920HOKKAIDO.UNDERSTOODAT1 ONE.
    UNDERSTANDTHISANDFUCKOFFPIRATEBAY.TIMEDOESNTEXSIST FORMEASIMPATEKPHILLPE.
    BANG

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    If the proposed change is to solve problems, I don't think it hurts to spend a bit of time actually trying to agree what those problems are so we have a reference point for the proposed solution.
    It would indeed make sense to discuss what problems there may be if we are intending to create a system to address them. Not sure about the best way to accommodate this, obviously noone wants to derail the actual purpose of the outfit meeting, ie. implementing an improved leadership system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMaster View Post
    The point of these chats is that all Giraffes get a say, not just the elders. Of course, that might change after this one. But yeah, put it here, and we'll try to just have someone bring it up at the meeting (someone almost always does) and not talk about it too much now.
    I think, actually, most of my points have been covered in the VS Organisation And Leadership thread - I had what I consider a fair proposal for the removal of inactive members, which is in there. Unless you want it in here for organisational reasons, I won't repeat myself. However:

    Dewi's proposal (assuming it goes ahead) has one major issue, in my humble opinion. Assuming Cooper's honorary status enables him to vote, you'll have an even number of Council Members (8). On issues that divide the group, there is the distinct possibility that all votes/opinions will be split evenly, leading to organisational paralysis. So really you need an odd number, either 1 less or 1 more.

    Also - if the removal of members is just to see how strong the Fightin' Giraffes are, could not some volunteer/ sucker from the council simply ask for in game friend requests from all the clan? Mention it in in mumble, sticky a post at the top of the forum, post on the website, make sure it's out there. After a month, your friends list should be all you need. Obviously said sucker would end up with a massively friends list, so that might be a problem for them.
    Last edited by Guvornator; 29-05-2014 at 10:32 AM.
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  13. #13
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guvornator View Post
    Dewi's proposal (assuming it goes ahead) has one major issue, in my humble opinion. Assuming Cooper's honorary status enables him to vote, you'll have an even number of Council Members (8). On issues that divide the group, there is the distinct possibility that all votes/opinions will be split evenly, leading to organisational paralysis. So really you need an odd number, either 1 less or 1 more.
    I have no intention of taking a position in the proposed council, honorary or otherwise. So the concern is moot.
    Quote Originally Posted by CROCONOUGHTKEY
    KING GEORGE IS A FROG
    le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~—
    OFF
    NOT RUSHMORE MOUNTAIN
    KILL WESTON KILL MUST KILLTHEWESTERNINMYHEADDOESN’TEXSIST
    TEXASISDEADINPARISHEWASAMAN..BINGBING.TETTOHEAD.SP ACEOK,TIMEDEADANDSTOPPED1920HOKKAIDO.UNDERSTOODAT1 ONE.
    UNDERSTANDTHISANDFUCKOFFPIRATEBAY.TIMEDOESNTEXSIST FORMEASIMPATEKPHILLPE.
    BANG

  14. #14
    Lesser Hivemind Node BasicPauly's Avatar
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    My proposal would be that rather than saying "right thats it, system is there forever"... We give it a trial run of a few months and see how we feel.

    See how it goes with a few people making decisions, and later on down the line we can adjust the system to better reflect the new concerns. We can always introduce more 'parts' of a whole later on. For example, if we feel a set group of leaders doesnt work out too well, implement the rotation system I proposed before.

    I think this is one thing worth discussing in your meeting, specifically: "Should we have a trial run and possibly introduce changes at a later date, to at least give system 1 a try".

    At the end of the day, if we do have this system, and somebody REALLY detests one of the decisions... Well then we are going to hear about it on the forums, and we can act on it then!
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  15. #15
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    Wednesday 4th of June.. darnit. stupid school prom-ish thingy.

  16. #16
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    I've edited the agenda. Unfortunatley, the editor is rejecting my line breaks now.

  17. #17
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    I find myself in Greece for work this week, and will be unable to make the meeting. For what it's worth, I am for the formation of the council, and trust my fellow giraffes to review the details in my absence, the meeting on Sunday was heartening and I was happy with what I heard there.
    Last edited by stoopiduk; 04-06-2014 at 12:41 PM. Reason: eyes are not ears
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  18. #18
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    I'm with Stoopid on this one. I won't be there either as my tabletop gaming group have moved this weeks session to tonight.

  19. #19
    Lesser Hivemind Node sinomatic's Avatar
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    On the off-chance that I'm not there tonight (got some last minute cramming to do), I'm totally for the council. What I heard being put together on Sunday was good, and I think it honestly can't hurt to trial the whole thing for a few months anyway, just to see if it's the way forward.

  20. #20
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    Sorry I had to leave early (and miss the rest of the discussion), but I have my thesis defense tomorrow and need to sleep. I'm looking forward to seeing the results of the meeting when I wake up.
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