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Thread: The Great Cull

  1. #21
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Well, this discussion, while interesnting in some ways, is not really leading anywhere right now, since we're not going to do any roster maintenance any time soon, most likely. They keep saying that outfit recruitment and stuff is going to happen, but I have yet to see anything that indicates such is actually the case, and until we know more about how the visibility/ranking systems for this work, we are unlikely to be doing anything.

    also, you can rest assured that no culling of members will be done without first consulting an outfit meeting, presenting it with one or two reasonably well worked-through options for how to go about it.
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  2. #22
    Lesser Hivemind Node stoopiduk's Avatar
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    I believe as long as the terms we agree on any cull are prominently displayed on the forums/site so that anyone that is kicked can see why and that they can get back in.

    Any player getting the arse ache for being kicked after 6/12 months, or who doesn't check the forum in the space of this already long-winded debate to realise that it's coming, is probably not worth too much to the outfit.

    Let's not lose sight of how easy it is to undo a outfit kick.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoopiduk View Post
    Any player getting the arse ache for being kicked after 6/12 months, or who doesn't check the forum in the space of this already long-winded debate to realise that it's coming, is probably not worth too much to the outfit.
    That's kind of my issue with a lot of what is being suggested (don't worry Eso I'm not going to start talking over detailed proposals). They may not be worth much to the outfit, there may be a lot of things we could easily do while maintaining the status quo for those of us who are involved on the forums and heavily invested in the game and squad play. But then what is the outfit for? I still think it is a place for people who read RPS to come and play PS2, primarily. Does it matter if they end up playing solo most of the time? Does it matter if they don't play every month?

    It may be easy enough to re-invite people, but what would it say about the outfit if we kick people for inactivity despite having no clear reason for doing so? Or kick people for wanting to play solo, even if they have done nothing wrong?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizlar View Post
    It may be easy enough to re-invite people, but what would it say about the outfit if we kick people for inactivity despite having no clear reason for doing so? Or kick people for wanting to play solo, even if they have done nothing wrong?
    I don't think it's a matter of "you play solo most of your time in PS2, or you haven't played for two months so you're out". I will definitely oppose any such proposal. I've solo'd quite a bit myself and have been absent for longer periods of time due to IRL stuff.

    Rather the two different possible groups for culling (and they are really two different groups with entirely different reasons being raised for culling) are A) those who at some point joined RPS but never ever do anything with us and B) those who at some point joined RPS but haven't played the game in a really long time.

    Group A are obviously only interested in playing the game solo. Had they been interested in participating in an outfit, they would have left RPS and joined another one. So they probably don't even think of themselves as members of RPS, as they are only members in name. They don't do anything with us, and that's completely fine. But then there's no reason for them to stay in the outfit, and there's no problem with removing them. It won't affect our member activity (as seen in events), our leadership, what we do, or anything of all the stuff that makes RPS who we are.

    Group B are those who just don't play the game at all anymore. If you are not interested in the game, you won't play, and you won't care about being in an outfit in the game or not. Much like group A, removing these persons also won't affect us in the slightest.

    A question about why we should kick people like these (despite having no influence on the outfit) have been raised by several people. I would like to ask the counter-question. Why should we keep people who either don't play the game or don't play with the outfit at all?
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  5. #25
    Lesser Hivemind Node NickWhite's Avatar
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    [EDIT]: @Everyone

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizlar View Post
    what would it say about the outfit if we kick people for inactivity despite having no clear reason for doing so? Or kick people for wanting to play solo, even if they have done nothing wrong?
    The Outfit should be governed by the people who play in it, contribute to it and care about it. If you do not fall into those categories and simply log in and play on your own with the RPS tag, then you could also argue, what is the actual point in you being part of the Outfit.

    The negatives for us could, perhaps do (or arguably already have) potentially outweigh any positives for them.

    It is not a punishment. It's to combat things like this for example, (an opinion that is valid and shared)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Hoc View Post
    They are only part of the outfit in name, and I do think they have an effect on our reputation. If they, for example, are players who only play with the zerg and people time after time see the [RPS] tag when people are just zerging it will further increase our reputation as a zerg-fit/unorganized/whatever (and yes, at least some people seem to think we are just a zerg-fit). For me, playing with the outfit at least once in a while (even if it's just once every other month or whatever) doesn't seem like an unreasonable minimal demand of our members.
    ^ To clarify. This (reputation) is the essence of the debate FOR kicking, in the Outfit's current state. There are also other issues such as unchecked behavior & overall input. ^

    Ultimately, the Outfit update will either nullify, justify, or shed more clarity on that "essence", this topic and all reasons for and against doing so. I think i can safely speak for the council when i say that we are all listening to, and are definitely aware of and agree with everyone's opinions on this topic.

    We are simply trying to give this debate some structure through highlighting the reasons for and against, (as appose to letting this turn into an uncontrolled and long winded discussion) whilst letting you know all the prerequisites for this change, should they eventually matter or indeed happen.

    I now refer you to two other members of the council.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaKroy View Post
    At the outfit meeting we decided to postpone any culling until we know how the promised in-game outfit ranking and recruitment will work. It might be beneficial to remove inactive members or it might be beneficial to have many members. We do not know any of this yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericReverie View Post
    You can rest assured that no culling of members will be done without first consulting an outfit meeting, presenting it with one or two reasonably well worked-through options for how to go about it.
    Please feel free to discus this topic further, but respectfully, any point you raise from now on should try to keep these facts in mind and be said in knowledge of this context. We all secretly love long-winded discussions and debates, but without us using a bit of discipline on this subject - confusion will arise and this thread will be a mess. Let's just avoid any of that and keep posts concise, balanced and as clear as possible please.
    Last edited by NickWhite; 06-06-2014 at 12:58 PM.
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  6. #26
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    Respectfully, I think my post was concise and on topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizlar View Post
    what is the outfit for? I still think it is a place for people who read RPS to come and play PS2, primarily. [...] what would it say about the outfit if we kick people for inactivity despite having no clear reason for doing so? Or kick people for wanting to play solo, even if they have done nothing wrong?
    Those are precisely the two things being proposed. Like I said at the start of the post, I don't want to get into talking details pointlessly, but I did want to highlight how certain things being discussed could be counter to the outfit's purpose.

  7. #27
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus bonkers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BasicPauly View Post
    If thats not enough for people, consider going up to BR 5.... But then we run the risk of people who only started recently getting turfed out.
    How many new members do currently join per week? If we cull (which I am not really a fan of as inactive players do nothing to our repuation. If people only look at the number of players in the outfit but not at the numbers of active players then they are morons anyway) we could first go with BR1s.
    Then we write down every new member that joins us for two weeks (maybe invitation permissions need to be restricted temporarily to those who remember to write down the names) and after two weeks we cull up to BR3. Then we do the same for another two weeks and cull up to BR5. This should be about 400 players.
    It's a bit more work but you would avoid removing players who just joined recently. And getting up to BR5 in a month should be plenty of time
    Last edited by bonkers; 06-06-2014 at 02:12 PM.
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  8. #28
    Lesser Hivemind Node NickWhite's Avatar
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    @ Rizlar
    Of course, which then means that the Outfit's purpose and identity should be added to the Council's mandate. Which i will add myself to the proposals for the upcoming meeting. Some of us have a clear opinion on what the Outfit is or what it should represent, whilst also having conflicting views. Some of us are just unsure either way.

    Which leads me on to say that I never said your post specifically wasn't concise, i directed that at everyone as a format reminder. But on reflection, saying something like "It's obvious that Outfit Identity is something we need to figure out". "Here is a suggestion" perhaps may have been more productive than your choice of wording.

    Now, i appreciate that may seen very nitpicky or whatever, but momentum (through productive input) and frustration (through endless discussion) need to be kept at optimal levels, to avoid the "i told you so" and "i give up" attitudes that have chimed-in over the past few weeks. Hopefully that is understadable, at least.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickWhite View Post
    momentum (through productive input) and frustration (through endless discussion) need to be kept at optimal levels, to avoid the "i told you so" and "i give up" attitudes that have chimed-in over the past few weeks. Hopefully that is understadable, at least.
    Maybe time to lock this thread? Since it was sort of decided to not act on culling immediately anyway, this thread is just going to be discussion. If that's a problem might be better to close it for now.

  10. #30
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BasicPauly's Avatar
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    I see no reason to close it, it really is just a discussion, and as far as I see it, it isnt out of control.

    @Bonkers, thats exactly what I was suggesting, and would be a fair method.. It would actually be easier on the council, as it would split the job of sifting through names into managable chunks.

    I know nothing is going to happen yet, but its still a good topic for open discussion.

    Im on the fence on this one at the moment. While I can see good reasons for a cull, I somewhat agree with Rizlar. We are supposed to be an outfit for RPS members to come and play with.

    I mean, I realise not all of you can see a valid reason to be in the outfit if you dont play regularly with the group...

    It is worth noting that there are no doubt cases where people play very occasionally with the group, or indeed want to represent RPS as a site (using our tags) without playing with the group. Why shouldnt they be allowed to do this if they really want to? As long as they arent being absolute idiots.

    IF there is a cull in the future, I dont think we should target people who dont play with us regularly, but just keep it to people who dont play at all (the BR 1s).
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BasicPauly View Post
    I mean, I realise not all of you can see a valid reason to be in the outfit if you dont play regularly with the group...

    It is worth noting that there are no doubt cases where people play very occasionally with the group, or indeed want to represent RPS as a site (using our tags) without playing with the group. Why shouldnt they be allowed to do this if they really want to? As long as they arent being absolute idiots.

    IF there is a cull in the future, I dont think we should target people who dont play with us regularly, but just keep it to people who dont play at all (the BR 1s).
    Chiming in as one of the guys who's been inactive from ps2 for a while: I do still follow forums, i occasionally pop in for just an "hmm, i feel like playing shooty bang bang game, i wonder if there's anything fun or new happening in ps2". I may not join mumble channel at the time (i got another non rps group whose (or is it whom's?) server i usually prattle on so if there's something going on there i may stay unless there's something happening in ps2).

    I mean i'm an idiot and all but i try not bring shame to the name tag . I'm not in the sub-BR10 category though if it's not only by inactivity, and if cull does land on me i'll just bugger someone next cta for an invite i guess (unless it happens again right when i'm on LAN event).

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graerth View Post
    Chiming in as one of the guys who's been inactive from ps2 for a while: I do still follow forums, i occasionally pop in for just an "hmm, i feel like playing shooty bang bang game, i wonder if there's anything fun or new happening in ps2". I may not join mumble channel at the time (i got another non rps group whose (or is it whom's?) server i usually prattle on so if there's something going on there i may stay unless there's something happening in ps2).

    I mean i'm an idiot and all but i try not bring shame to the name tag . I'm not in the sub-BR10 category though if it's not only by inactivity, and if cull does land on me i'll just bugger someone next cta for an invite i guess (unless it happens again right when i'm on LAN event).
    And it's just to make sure we don't actually cut people like you that there will be ample warning on the forums (and mumble) in case there is any cull. I think we all agree that we don't want to lose people who only play occasionaly, but who still participate in the community.
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  13. #33
    Network Hub eltdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BasicPauly View Post
    It is worth noting that there are no doubt cases where people play very occasionally with the group, or indeed want to represent RPS as a site (using our tags) without playing with the group. Why shouldnt they be allowed to do this if they really want to? As long as they arent being absolute idiots.
    As long as non-outfit members feel able to report people using the RPS tag that are being douches then that's cool. RPS isn't a hardcore MLG outfit so don't see why a kind of "always be on Mumble and squadded or get kicked" thing would be necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graerth View Post
    [..] if cull does land on me i'll just bugger someone next cta for an invite [...]
    Glad I joined before this new entry policy.

  14. #34
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    A post on the miller subreddit should cover that. All the major outfits are active there, any concerns about outfit reputation within the community would be aired there also.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    A post on the miller subreddit should cover that. All the major outfits are active there, any concerns about outfit reputation within the community would be aired there also.
    Not a bad idea!

  16. #36
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    A post on the miller subreddit should cover that. All the major outfits are active there, any concerns about outfit reputation within the community would be aired there also.
    Yeah, we could absolutely do that. How would you phrase such a post? Just looking for some inspiration.
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  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Dominicus's Avatar
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    Send the concept post to the moderators of the miller subreddit first. Can't harm to get their greenlight, before it become out of hand for some strange reasons. (naming and shaming and outfit relations had a rough time with the 252 VS LYF love story)
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericReverie View Post
    How would you phrase such a post? Just looking for some inspiration.
    RPS are looking for some feedback. Let us know if you have ever had a poor experience with one of our members.

    Sound alright? I can see how reddit could go up in flames if it involved an outfit with a terrible reputation, or if the outfit looking for feedback was full of shit-talking trolls who take offence at everything posted. But I don't think either is the case here. But yeah, wouldn't hurt to give the moderators a heads-up.

  19. #39
    Lesser Hivemind Node NickWhite's Avatar
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    Hmm. That could either work really well, or open up a can of worms.

    (For the record: We're held in high regard amongst most of TVA. Well, no more or less than how they view each other - at least)

    I've actually seen similar sort of posts on /Miller and /Planetside, but they were more all-encompassing. Personally i think something like that should be put forward with the "we'll kick things off, how do you guys view us? We view so-and-so as this, those guys in this way, and this outfit is awesome because they do this" etc.

    I would suggest putting forward the idea of an "Outfit Reputation" thread to one of the Mods. They can structure it how they want or just say, you guys can post whatever... It would have to be balanced and well thought out, to avoid the usual trolling or possibilities of drama-Llamas.

    They probably would be in favour of such a thing considering its 'Miller Community' context and the purpose of the SubReddit itself.
    Last edited by NickWhite; 07-06-2014 at 06:46 PM.
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  20. #40
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    Think the suggestion was meant as a way to keep tabs on anyone who is being anti-excellent and giving us a bad name, rather than wanting to start a general discussion of how awesome we are (although obvs you will get a lot of people responding off topic on reddit anyway).

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