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  1. #41
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Heh, them brushstrokes. Maybe 2014 is no special year.

  2. #42
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    It's a matter of what you're willing to pay for, not whether the economy of it is good.
    Er ... that doesn't make any sense. Surely those are the same thing unless you think there's some kind of space-age-fancy-pants objective measure of how good the economy of it is. What you're willing to pay for + what things actually cost = how good the economy of it is. Right?

    As has been mentioned PCs are being replaced by tablets for some low-end general computing needs reducing the number of people for whom getting a stepped-up PC is cheaper than getting a console. But it's hard to beat $7.00 for Skyrim. Not even on Amazon. Unless you do trade-ins but even then the deal isn't as good and you don't get to keep your old games.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 23-07-2014 at 08:04 AM.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Er ... that doesn't make any sense. Surely those are the same thing unless you think there's some kind of space-age-fancy-pants objective measure of how good the economy of it is. What you're willing to pay for + what things actually cost = how good the economy of it is. Right?

    As has been mentioned PCs are being replaced by tablets for some low-end general computing needs reducing the number of people for whom getting a stepped-up PC is cheaper than getting a console. But it's hard to beat $7.00 for Skyrim. Not even on Amazon. Unless you do trade-ins but even then the deal isn't as good and you don't get to keep your old games.
    Sure, and I think my objection is more about the enforced competition in all directions - we should also get more PC games on Consoles. You shouldn't have to buy all of the N gaming platforms in existence at any point just to get all the games (now, with all 3 consoles having interesting exclusives, plus the handhelds, and PC and mobile platforms, there's a lot of expense to buy into access). And it shouldn't, in an ideal world, matter *which* of the N platforms you actually decide on (modulo prettiness of graphics or whatever).

  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus somini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aoanla View Post
    Sure, and I think my objection is more about the enforced competition in all directions - we should also get more PC games on Consoles. You shouldn't have to buy all of the N gaming platforms in existence at any point just to get all the games (now, with all 3 consoles having interesting exclusives, plus the handhelds, and PC and mobile platforms, there's a lot of expense to buy into access). And it shouldn't, in an ideal world, matter *which* of the N platforms you actually decide on (modulo prettiness of graphics or whatever).
    You can easily cut that knot:
    Buy a PC and you can play whatever you want, even from consoles. Past consoles, but still.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by somini View Post
    You can easily cut that knot:
    Buy a PC and you can play whatever you want, even from consoles. Past consoles, but still.
    What *is* the legal status of emulators these days?

  6. #46
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    I believe ripping a BIOS is illegal. Possibly not if you own the hardware, but at that point I imagine emulation's not top of your concerns unless you're trying to play PSX games on a UHDTV.
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  7. #47
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    Grey zone.
    Emulators per se aren't illegal, but console BIOS file that is needed to run games is. For example, ePSXe doesn't come with BIOS file and theorethically you can extract it from your own original PSX, put original CD to drive and everything will be OK.

    But yeah, in most cases emulation = piracy.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by GameCat View Post
    Grey zone.
    Emulators per se aren't illegal, but console BIOS file that is needed to run games is. For example, ePSXe doesn't come with BIOS file and theorethically you can extract it from your own original PSX, put original CD to drive and everything will be OK.

    But yeah, in most cases emulation = piracy.
    Problem is, however, both PS and PS2 have been out of production for years, and most of their games have been out-of-print. However are we supposed to look for legit copies of them?

  9. #49
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus somini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Problem is, however, both PS and PS2 have been out of production for years, and most of their games have been out-of-print. However are we supposed to look for legit copies of them?
    Exactly!
    Publishers would say "Buy the rereleases for PS3 and PS4! Buy the same game over and over again.". What if I want to play Ruff Trigger: The Vanocore Conspiracy?
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  10. #50
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    both PS and PS2 have been out of production for years
    Sony closed PS2 production in 2012 or 2013. :)

  11. #51
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Er ... that doesn't make any sense. Surely those are the same thing unless you think there's some kind of space-age-fancy-pants objective measure of how good the economy of it is. What you're willing to pay for + what things actually cost = how good the economy of it is. Right?
    Sure it does, and.... nope. That's just a very reductionist and pedantic interpretation of what I said. That seems a pattern with you, no?

    I am just watching people claim that it is "too expensive" to buy a console. To whom is it too expensive? In your own eyes, OK, fine. "Economy of it" was a synonym for expense, or cost, and how that is taken by the buyer in the context of "what they want and what they are willing to spend for it." In the eye of the beholder, and the million other ways that can be said. FYI. But let's just ignore that and complain about the console buyer, just because....

    If you really want it, you'll buy it in some way, in one's own means.

    That's basically all I said.

    Kind of like... just with buying parts for a PC! Orly... how often one wants to upgrade, or just build an entirely new PC, or when they want to buy games... etc. If you really want it... you'll look for ways to make it happen at the very least. The "economy of it" only enters into one's mind after you've decided you're interested in the product.
    Quote Originally Posted by aoanla View Post
    What *is* the legal status of emulators these days?
    You are supposed to rip your own BIOS for some emulators. But very few people actually do that (probably).

    Other emulators don't ask for a BIOS which I'm not sure about.

    The "legal basis" (if there even is one) is assuming you *already own the console and the games you are playing.*

    Advocating to use a PC to play all the console games *without even buying any of them consoles or the games* is (probably) illegal. Or rather that act itself is illegal, not the advocating :)
    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Problem is, however, both PS and PS2 have been out of production for years, and most of their games have been out-of-print. However are we supposed to look for legit copies of them?
    You haven't discovered the internet yet? Buying online? You can still buy plenty of these which are available on the market. Consoles or games.

    Arguing it is now "legal to steal" because they aren't in production anymore is silly. There are *plenty* new and used consoles available at online shops.

    There are other platforms also available that play PS1 games (PSP, PS Vita, all models of PS3 play PS1 games). PS2 is not a "rare" machine in the slightest either, and it also plays PS1 games.

    squirrel I think your official policy is "as soon as it's not sold directly from the manufacturer, you can steal it" I guess? I'm pretty sure you made a thread on that too. I think it was about "We should be allowed to steal Windows XP now because Microsoft doesn't update it anymore." Nice.

    We could continue this thread and act like people are a different species based on the fact they buy PCs, or consoles, or both.

    Or we couldn't, up to you guys.
    Last edited by rockman29; 23-07-2014 at 03:56 PM.

  12. #52
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus somini's Avatar
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    Emultor who don't need BIOS dumps reimplemented it themselves. It's not easy.

    And buying used games online doesn't benefit Sony in the slightest, so pirating or buying used games has the same effect for them.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    I am just watching people claim that it is "too expensive" to buy a console. To whom is it too expensive? In your own eyes, OK, fine.
    Well, of course in the eyes of the person making the statement.

    "Economy of it" was a synonym for expense, or cost, and how that is taken by the buyer in the context of "what they want and what they are willing to spend for it." In the eye of the beholder, and the million other ways that can be said. FYI. But let's just ignore that and complain about the console buyer, just because....
    Who's complaining about the console buyer? Mostly the people you are disagreeing with are saying that having *multiple systems* is an unreasonable cost, not that consoles in particular are.
    (People on this site tend to have PCs, so the "additional systems" tend to be consoles, but I think the argument is perfectly suited to someone with Console X, who doesn't want to have to get a PC or Console Y. In fact, gwathdring is actually defending people buying consoles rather than PCs in the second part of the post you're replying to!)

    If you really want it, you'll buy it in some way, in one's own means.

    That's basically all I said.
    Sure: I really want to play Xbox360/PS3 exclusives, so I'm paying in time rather than money (waiting for the cost of the system to drop to a lower value). Deferred-cost tradeoffs are not a particularly unusual way to get a thing (the pricing of most media now is based on them - hence the decrease in the value of a given movie when it's been on DVD for more than a few months).
    I still think that the current situation with exclusives (on all platforms, not just Consoles) is annoying, and I'm deliberately opting out of it (it just so happens that I own a PC rather than an XboxOne while doing this).

    We could continue this thread and act like people are a different species based on the fact they buy PCs, or consoles, or both.

    Or we couldn't, up to you guys.
    I don't think anyone is doing that in the first place.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    You haven't discovered the internet yet? Buying online? You can still buy plenty of these which are available on the market. Consoles or games.

    Arguing it is now "legal to steal" because they aren't in production anymore is silly. There are *plenty* new and used consoles available at online shops.
    I remember a similar argument from the high age of abandonware, long before GoG was created. "You can buy those games on ebay". Yeah, for 100 usd on a floppy with no money going to the creator.

    Of course, console game and console availability are much better than that, at this moment. Just saying it is a spectrum which can get quite crazy the deeper you get into the woods.

  15. #55
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    It is definitely a spectrum, I agree.

    The PlayStation 2 is about $150 right now, and new consoles can be purchased from resellers.

    A PSP which plays many of these games is cheaper than that. A PS Vita is $200 USD MSRP. A PS3 is $199 to $299 and can play the same digital versions a PSP or Vita can play, or it can play the hard copies.

    Many of the games are sold digitally. The base price for most PS1 games on the SEN store is $5.99 USD.

    Recently, titles like Syphon Filter series, and Spyro series, and even Dino Crisis series were sold for $0.99 USD each. Yep. I bought many of them :)

    Hard copies of the same games sell from about $5 or $10 or $15. Some select ones can go up to $50, $80, $100 (e.g. Final Fantasy series, I'm happy I never sold my copies). The most rare possibly more than that, but those expensive ones are very much the exception, not the rule.

    It is definitely a spectrum, but many, many of these games are easily found online as hard copies, or online digitally, and by and large for very reasonable prices. And maybe about 250 or so out of the library of maybe about 2000 PS1 games (most no one even knows about) are now available digitally. PS2 games do not have as many digital versions, but that console is even more ubiquitous and so are it's games as hard copies, especially now.

    If the only argument advocating to play the games on PC through emulators is "because you can", it is definitely a weak one. If the next best argument is that "any money needs to be spent to play these old games", that is just even worse...
    Last edited by rockman29; 23-07-2014 at 04:17 PM.

  16. #56
    Lesser Hivemind Node frightlever's Avatar
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    I thought the original Halo on Xbox made a credible case for FPS on console.

    Anyway, what I really feel obliged to point out is that the Dreamcast had M+K support way back in the day. I think Unreal Tournament and Half Life were both on there but I don't think either had multiplayer. May be wrong.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by frightlever View Post
    I thought the original Halo on Xbox made a credible case for FPS on console.

    Anyway, what I really feel obliged to point out is that the Dreamcast had M+K support way back in the day. I think Unreal Tournament and Half Life were both on there but I don't think either had multiplayer. May be wrong.
    Half-life was never properly released, although a beta is floating around. If I remember right UT is (was) playable online, I never got the modem working in mine at the time, nor tried a keyboard and mouse unfortunately.

    I may just have to dig my dreamcast out...
    Last edited by weebob; 23-07-2014 at 04:27 PM.

  18. #58
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Half-Life for Dreamcast was never officially released, though there is a working version. That version is called Half Life Gold I think. There is also a Half-Life version for PS2. Another game that supports KB/M on Dreamcast is Quake 3 Arena.

    The Dreamcast is famous for having netplay working well before PS2 as well. Phantasy Star Online may have had KB/M support too, for typing to others.

    Not sure if the lightgun shooters supported DC mouse input.

  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    I am just watching people claim that it is "too expensive" to buy a console. To whom is it too expensive? In your own eyes, OK, fine. "Economy of it" was a synonym for expense, or cost, and how that is taken by the buyer in the context of "what they want and what they are willing to spend for it." In the eye of the beholder, and the million other ways that can be said. FYI. But let's just ignore that and complain about the console buyer, just because....
    I can't parse this paragraph. Can you rephrase maybe? I really don't understand what you're trying to say. Complain about the console buyer in particular. Not sure what you're on about.

    If you really want it... you'll look for ways to make it happen at the very least. The "economy of it" only enters into one's mind after you've decided you're interested in the product.
    I'm not sure why we're dissecting the Order of Operations of buying video game consoles in the first place. People have said they think it's too expensive. I think they would know better than you what is too expensive for them and what is and isn't within their means.

    For some people, $200-$400 is a lot of money. Some of those people already need a PC and could spend $200-$400 upgrading that PC to be pretty damn good at playing games. For those who don't already need a PC, a cheap tablet and a cheap console might be their best option. But then there's the cost of games and availability of games. $20-$60 for games vs $1.00-$30 for games and a broader selection of independent titles. Sure there are console exclusives, but there are de-facto PC exclusives, too.

    Sure, most people who can afford to play games at all can afford a console especially if they can afford a gaming PC. But for my money, I'd rather get $200-$400 more of games on PC or a $200 to $400 better PC than a console on top of my PC. And I've saved so much on games (even just counting what I've actually PLAYED) that I don't think console gaming is a clear bargain over PC gaming. Nor PC over consoles for that matter.
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  20. #60
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Berzee's Avatar
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    I like best to play games on my laptop, wearing headphones, sitting in a comfy recliner, huddled away in a corner with my back to the wall where nobody can sneak up on me, preferably after dark while everyone else is sleeping, with the lights off, and a forgotten mug of herbal tea cooling by my elbow. I'm so attached to this setup that I usually don't play games on my desktop anymore unless they won't run on my laptop (sometimes opting to play games at 800x600 resolution rather than switching to a desk chair and a centrally-facing monitor).

    I'm not really sure why I treat my games-time like Gollum treats The One Ring, but I don't think a console would be compatible with this style of play unless I also find a little television I can rest in my lap. :P
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