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  1. #81
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    Well, we solved the hunger problem. We can feed every person in this planet.

    Is just... thats not how our economy works. Our technology can grown to fix problems, like dead, hunger, etc.. and they will still a problem, because we have not fixed our bigger problem: Economy.

    Also another one: Education. How much would cost to give books (all of them) to all childrens in the world? almost nothing, the bandwidth cost of a download.

    Is the economy, how we distribute the wealth, that is slowing us. We have the technology so any kid will have a book in his hands, any book, we have the technology to give this kid food. But our economy just don't work that way. Some would say, it dont work.

  2. #82
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Whoever figures out how to power their country entirely with local solar power wins IMO.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    Whoever figures out how to power their country entirely with local solar power wins IMO.
    And whoever figures out how to hijack that country's solar power with their own orbital solar panels wins big.

  4. #84
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Hahah, that's just mean :P

  5. #85
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus somini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    And whoever figures out how to hijack that country's solar power with their own orbital solar panels wins big.
    And whoever just puts up a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere wins the last.
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  6. #86
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkasaurusmex View Post
    Why do you need something tangible? As an artist I would say recognition and validation are much more fulfilling than getting paid.
    I think everybody else answered this but yeah, I was going to say that without tangible benefits that artist isn't going to eat. Instead they'll be investing a lot of time into doing something else just to eat. You're right that a lot of small time artists have to work at another job because their art doesn't sell - and that's perfectly fine, because most art collectively isn't worth selling and people have better things to spend money on than Hipster Artist's white paint on white canvas. If you intend to do art full time you'll need that tangible reward though.
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  7. #87
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by somini View Post
    And whoever just puts up a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere wins the last.
    I totally mentioned that a bajillion times already, no fair.

  8. #88
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I think everybody else answered this but yeah, I was going to say that without tangible benefits that artist isn't going to eat. Instead they'll be investing a lot of time into doing something else just to eat. You're right that a lot of small time artists have to work at another job because their art doesn't sell - and that's perfectly fine, because most art collectively isn't worth selling and people have better things to spend money on than Hipster Artist's white paint on white canvas. If you intend to do art full time you'll need that tangible reward though.
    Pretty much. it is a matter of scale and what is expected.

    The guy who did Gunpoint basically made back all of his development costs in the first two or three sales. So while I doubt he would appreciate seeing massive piracy rates, it wouldn't really affect his livelihood. He is/was a game journalist and was already supported, and Gunpoint was solely a work of love.

    Whereas, if a significant portion of The Witcher 3 fans pirated the game, CD Projekt would largely be fucked and would probably have to scale back Cyberpunk and possibly lay off a lot of workers.

    This is the same thing that pops up in all other forms of media. Hobbyist/"pure" artists tend to not understand that truly making something your career means you have to care about the financial success of a product.

    A lot of people wish Harry Connolly would write more Twenty Palaces, but that series bombed so hard that he can't really justify it from a financial perspective. Because the time he would spend on a book in a series he loves (although, I think he may hate it now because of all the failure. Which is a shame because it was great) wouldn't make him enough money to keep himself and his family in comfort. So he has been writing another series and contract work.

    Or look at Matt Fraction. The start of his career were some pretty "interesting" comics. Then he got his "big break" with Marvel and the like and did mostly mainstream, but still fun, books. Now he is in a comfortable position where he can do whatever he wants again, and we have gotten the glory that is Hawkeye and Sex Criminals. He went from "art for art's sake" to "art for money's sake" to "both, because he is awesome".
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  9. #89
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus somini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    I totally mentioned that a bajillion times already, no fair.
    I could go higher on the Kardashev scale...
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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by somini View Post
    I could go higher on the Kardashev scale...
    I assume you're referring to the Dyson vacuum?

  11. #91
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    I think I have one of those, pretty handy for keeping the den clean.

  12. #92
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    Hmmm... as said, bias effects peoples views.

    Take Gunpoint for example. The argument is "he was getting paid for reporting so did not care about piracy of the game, as he did not need the income". Well no. The reason he did not care about piracy, is the little game made back 10x it's investment. It was succesfull (for him by his own measure, not that of shareholders/marketing teams). So chasing the pircay, would be like worrying about a grain of dust in a bucket of gold.

    If Gunpoint made no money, piracy would be a problem. Tom would not be able to continue developing games. Read his blog posts to see the real reason piracy is not a concern to him, instead of projecting our own thoughts...
    It is a technical difference, but's there none the less.

  13. #93
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus thegooseking's Avatar
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    Bizarrely, I think the one publisher that does understand piracy is (can I use the word 'bizarrely' again for emphasis?) EA. I was trying to figure out what they get out of offering free games as an incentive to get people to use their free client. The conversion rate (which is to say, people who spend money on Origin who wouldn't have otherwise) has got to be quite low.

    But thinking of it from the perspective of piracy, it's quite different. EA understands that pirates download games because they want free stuff, so they are offering a compromise: You want free stuff? You can have free stuff. Only the free stuff we say you can have, admittedly, but hey! Free stuff!

    That seems like a decent compromise to me, but then I'm not much of a pirate. It does seem to me that if people know they can get free stuff by playing by the rules, they'll be less inclined to break the rules.

    On top of that, one of the big complaints about DRM, and those anti-piracy messages on DVDs and all that are that they punish only the people who are playing by the rules. EA seems to have said, "You know what? Let's reward the people who play by the rules for once." There is an argument that they're also rewarding pirates, except they're not. The situation doesn't change for pirates. They can get the game for free, just like they always could. For legitimate customers, it's a free game; for pirates, it's just business as usual.

    EA have done something sensible. Why do I feel like I need to sit down even though I already am?

  14. #94
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    I think publishers get it more than we think. Ubisoft has an interesting approach with Assassin's Creed - there's a few things you can only get (in the Single Player portion of the game) if you're online. It's some really basic sharing fleet location and such, and the associated mini-game. You don't really lose anything by not having it.

    Except, of course, then the pirate copy isn't a 'complete' game. And the same mindset that sells day-one DLC to people because they fear that their game is otherwise incomplete, and the fact you can't get 100% sync without it (the final objective of any AC game) and it really feeds into that mindset.

  15. #95
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Well, in that sense, Mass Effect PC proved that DRM works. The first week or so was a game that wasn't functional (in a nutshell, the first mission worked and the Warez Groups said "Good enough, we won the race" and walked away), and warez forums around the interweb were full of people saying things along the lines of "Der, group suck and you all <INSERT DEROGATORY TERM HERE>. I gonna go buy game, lolzorz".

    Of course, Bioshock was then cracked before the launch date :p
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  16. #96
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    I think publishers get it more than we think. Ubisoft has an interesting approach with Assassin's Creed - there's a few things you can only get (in the Single Player portion of the game) if you're online. It's some really basic sharing fleet location and such, and the associated mini-game. You don't really lose anything by not having it.


    I think Ubisofts approach is the worst, I mean many many people hated the online only part and really it really punished legitimate buyers. They took it down a little bit but its still annoying to the people who buy it, and basically I'm sure piracy has found a way to get around it which means only the people who bought it are having the annoyance

  17. #97
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Steam is the ultimate in showing that DRM works, and not only works but can be loved and demanded by the gaming community. All the hate directed at Origin was exactly what Steam went through when it was first released - Valve killed the WON system, basically forcing people playing the most popular MP games at the time onto Steam, which was barely functional on release. Nobody remembers those days now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    I think Ubisofts approach is the worst, I mean many many people hated the online only part and really it really punished legitimate buyers. They took it down a little bit but its still annoying to the people who buy it, and basically I'm sure piracy has found a way to get around it which means only the people who bought it are having the annoyance
    Plenty of people have cracked it but Ubisoft's DRM is more an annoyance than anything else. It's another login to remember, and a launcher that quite frankly has a crap UI (then again Steam's UI is getting progressively worse over the years), but that's about it. Being an online service it's been through a lot of teething issues (including downtime) but so did every other major online service that ever was or ever will be. Hell, sometimes Steam shits the bed during a major release and files refuse to download or decrypt, but everyone forgets soon enough.
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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    [/COLOR]

    I think Ubisofts approach is the worst, I mean many many people hated the online only part and really it really punished legitimate buyers. They took it down a little bit but its still annoying to the people who buy it, and basically I'm sure piracy has found a way to get around it which means only the people who bought it are having the annoyance
    It depends how much it's implemented though. The early stuff was atrocious, but the latest AC game is fine, you just can't play the one mini game if you can't login. Likewise the Anno online stuff is really neat, but not necessary.

    Pirates have not found a way around it either. I'm sure they could, but why bother? 99.9% of the game works, the hardest task would be emulating the server to provide the other 0.1% of the game, which is just some unrelated mini-game. So they don't bother. And some completionists then go out and buy the game instead as it's the only way to get 100% sync.

  19. #99
    The thing with piracy is that it fixes the "gap" between what you value some piece of software and the value the company making it / store selling it thinks it's worth.

    The thing is, the problem is multi-dimensional:
    a) Programmers time isn't cheap, we don't do things for pennies on the dollar when we know how much the company will make because of our efforts
    b) The company want's to make some money with the product they're selling, and they have to pay their developers, who, again, aren't cheap
    c) The bill gets footed to the customer / end-user, who has to pay for the labour, operational costs etc

    The problem is with the value system, where the company values their product at a pricepoint a lot of people who want to buy it can't afford it. Thus piracy "solves the problem" by providing those masses with the product. It's simple economics: supply and demand.

    Granted, Steam and others have reduced the prices of games by allowing simpler distribution of the games thus lowering some operational costs that impact the price, to a degree. However, there is still a niche "market" of people who don't believe in paying for software.

    The reason for this is that they cannot comprehend the effort / knowledge that goes into a game or any other software product, it's not something that they can hold in their hands, like a book, or something, thus they can't assign a value to it.

    Personally, I don't mind piracy when someone who really can't afford it because they are really poor, but could use the product, if for nothing else but to put a smile on their face at the end of the day. What really grinds my gears is when people who can afford it, but choose to pirate it out of mere spite, just so that they can "cut a corner or two".

    But that's just my 2 cents.

  20. #100
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indieGameDev View Post
    However, there is still a niche "market" of people who don't believe in paying for software.

    The reason for this is that they cannot comprehend the effort / knowledge that goes into a game or any other software product, it's not something that they can hold in their hands, like a book, or something, thus they can't assign a value to it.
    People who don't believe in paying for software are not a niche market - they aren't a market period because they won't pay for it. They are probably more than capable of comprehending the effort required to develop software - they just outright don't care, much the same as people can be completely aware of the risks of smoking and still go ahead and do it anyway. You can't convert those people, they are a lost cause.

    Cliffski from Positech Games went on a rant a few years ago when he 'listened' to pirates, made a few adjustments, and then was upset to see that people were still pirating his games. Achieving a 0% piracy rate is impossible without draconian restrictions or tightly controlling distribution - you will always have people who just won't pay for it, and nothing you can say or do will change that perspective.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

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