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  1. #41
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sparkasaurusmex's Avatar
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    Subway Surfers was atop pirate bay's most seeded list for an extremely long time.

    I think a couple of ways that games get pirated heavily don't involve the quality of the game itself (though most aspects do).

    Subway Surfers is a small download, so it doesn't take up much space sitting on your hard drive.
    I imagine the crack is effortless to use, possibly just double click the install icon and it installs it already cracked.

    The file size and quality of the crack is important for a game to be favored.

    The other obvious thing is age of the game. The newest releases are usually atop the seed/leech lists.

  2. #42
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    Check out http://www.mit.edu/~ke23793/papers/D..._paperID16.pdf, referenced at gamespot. I'd quote bits of it, but it's not friendly to copy/paste. They found RPGs the most pirated genre.

    In Australia, but presumably elsewhere as well, the typical IP pirate is an educated, urban young man with a high household income.

    I would like to read more about the demographics of piracy, but discovered it difficult to find more information. I hypothesize that young men are the biggest pirates, and so games aimed at young men are the most pirated.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    BadManiac is right though - piracy is not theft. It can't be theft by the definition of theft - deprivation of a potential sale is not the same as me physically taking goods (or converting them) from you. That's why it's called copyright infringement, and not theft. If I take the CD from you, that's theft. If I copy that CD, but you still have that CD, I haven't stolen anything from you. I've made an unauthorised copy, which makes me guilty of copyright infringement, but I haven't stolen it from you.

    BadManiac didn't suggest that copyright infringement doesn't equate to a loss for the developer, he simply said that piracy isn't theft. And it isn't. Your views on the definition is irrelevant because the crime of theft is pretty clearly defined in each jurisdiction.
    Yeah, you can prevent someone from doing their job. But if someone sings a tune and charges for it... and someone else sings the same tune, they have not "deprived income", they have matched the service.

    If your customer does not need you for the service, they don't need you, your business model is at a loss, not the legal system.

    However, them breaking a contract (such as "do not copy this CD") is a breach of trust, and a moral wrong. In some instances it's a legal right to prevent copying, in others it's a legal right to allow copying.

    Thus, it's not depriving earnings. It can be a given right and legal for you to insist you charge for every copy. It can also be a given right and legal for others to freely distribute anything you publicly distribute.

    Which is why it's sometimes easier to concentrate on the consumers who wish to shower you in cash, instead of trying to get those who are out of reach economicly and legally
    It is a technical difference, but's there none the less.

  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    In Australia, but presumably elsewhere as well, the typical IP pirate is an educated, urban young man with a high household income.
    It's worth noting that the article is about piracy of many different kinds of media - including TV and movie media. Part of the reason for that is that we have fairly limited access to it over here. Our iTunes media offerings (outside of music) is anaemic, we have no access to Netflix or Hulu, and sometimes it takes ages for TV shows to ever come out over here. If you want to watch Game of Thrones you have one cable TV provider at a significant monthly cost. With such significant access block, I don't think it's any mystery that my demographic (except for the $100k part) are prolific pirates.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  5. #45
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    If we didn't have people wading into the grey area of abandonware would we have GoG?

    My feelings are that yes you signed up for the service that completely changes the game but I don't think there is much damage creating private servers so you can play the game that you want to play. Besides ive been on a few of them and there to quiet for an MMO so you still have to really play the real game if you want to get the full experience.
    I don't think it can be so simple though. SOE made SWG, and they own the rights to distribute it. The game had a subscription cost as well. Even if it didn't, the service provided by SOE is theirs to distribute. Just like the content of PlanetSide 2 is, I don't think SOE would be very happy with private PS2 servers hopping about giving everyone access to all the game's unlockable/payable content.

    Using a legal/pirated game copy on a private server would be in conflict with the way SOE designed their game to be sold and distributed no? SOE made the game. The private servers running the game software made by SOE are taking advantage of the work SOE did and without any compensation to them.

    TLDR: I don't think it's a very benign thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    BadManiac is right though - piracy is not theft. It can't be theft by the definition of theft - deprivation of a potential sale is not the same as me physically taking goods (or converting them) from you. That's why it's called copyright infringement, and not theft. If I take the CD from you, that's theft. If I copy that CD, but you still have that CD, I haven't stolen anything from you. I've made an unauthorised copy, which makes me guilty of copyright infringement, but I haven't stolen it from you.
    Quote Originally Posted by BadManiac View Post
    First of all let's get something straight. Piracy is NEVER theft. theft means person A takes something from person B, thus depriving person B from access to said thing. when you pirate software no one else loses that software.

    I pirate stuff that looks interesting, and buy it if I like it. Try before you buy. I can't even count how many games I would have never bought if not for piracy. so the reverse is true too.
    This is more semantics than properly relevant... and not as simple as you guys are saying, and neither of you are saying quite the same thing.

    Regardless, you are gaining privilege to a product without proper compensation to the distributor of the product.

    Whether or not it is the *most perfect pristine and unquestionably prototypical example of theft* is not really so important. Everyone knows what file copying and file sharing is here, yes so reproducible, duplicating data, etc etc...

    The stealing/theft however is not from who is sharing it. It is against the rights holders who are not getting compensation for that unlicensed copy of their work. Stealing the rights/access/privilege to the article, rather indirectly, from the rights holders.

    If we're going to be pedantic about the terminology, then piracy isn't even the correct term for "piracy." Or well... now it *is* by default because this is the culturally acceptable term, but piracy literally refers to people on boats being dicks and hijacking and killing and looting and sailing on the seven seas.

    How this term was associated with illegal file sharing is a whole phenomenon in itself probably.

    But I do agree that for me personally, like yourself BadManiac... "piracy" (yarrrr matey!) ended up leading me to purchasing far more games probably than I would have without that experience.
    Last edited by rockman29; 25-07-2014 at 05:17 AM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    It's worth noting
    Thanks, interesting to hear.

    Is there something you feel is unique to Australia about the pirates being young men? I mean, don't Australian women and older people have the same problems with access?

  7. #47
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    SOE made SWG, and they own the rights to distribute it. The game had a subscription cost as well. Even if it didn't, the service provided by SOE is theirs to distribute. Just like the content of PlanetSide 2 is, I don't think SOE would be very happy with private PS2 servers hopping about giving everyone access to all the game's unlockable/payable content.

    Using a legal/pirated game copy on a private server would be in conflict with the way SOE designed their game to be sold and distributed no? SOE made the game. The private servers running the game software made by SOE are taking advantage of the work SOE did and without any compensation to them.


    The thing is Star Wars Gaaxies doesn't exist so in that terms they have deliberately said we don;t want this game to be played anymore. And other people have said...uh no we do want to play this game. If SOE wants there money they know what they can do...release the game again, but there not so sorry why do they have to get the money for other peoples work on getting these servers up and running. I never got why copyright stayed with the people who made the thing if they aren't doing anything with it.

  8. #48
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    Whether or not it is the *most perfect pristine and unquestionably prototypical example of theft* is not really so important. Everyone knows what file copying and file sharing is here, yes so reproducible, duplicating data, etc etc...
    Well actually it is, because theft and copyright infringement are totally different crimes and demand different penalties. If I've stolen my copy from you by downloading it, then I'm responsible for that one copy since that's all I took. Those other copies I distributed? Well, they weren't yours to begin with, you never had them in the first place, since they're created from my copy. And on and on that line of thinking goes.

    Copyright infringement is not theft. It never has been and it never will be, and the lawyers will remember that because the penalty for copyright infringement is much worse than petty theft, which is what it would be if you just picked a CD up out of a store and walked off with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by nate View Post
    Is there something you feel is unique to Australia about the pirates being young men? I mean, don't Australian women and older people have the same problems with access?
    Don't really know, most of the females I know are exactly the same when it comes to piracy. It may just be a biased sample when it comes to males vs females. For older people - I'd argue it's probably a disconnect with technology (i.e. they don't know how to work BitTorrent so they go without) or alternatively they're well off enough to be able to afford Foxtel (the cable TV provider which carries some of these shows). Or they get it from their children. Not sure.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  9. #49
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus thegooseking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    This is more semantics than properly relevant... and not as simple as you guys are saying, and neither of you are saying quite the same thing.

    Regardless, you are gaining privilege to a product without proper compensation to the distributor of the product.

    Whether or not it is the *most perfect pristine and unquestionably prototypical example of theft* is not really so important. Everyone knows what file copying and file sharing is here, yes so reproducible, duplicating data, etc etc...

    The stealing/theft however is not from who is sharing it. It is against the rights holders who are not getting compensation for that unlicensed copy of their work. Stealing the rights/access/privilege to the article, rather indirectly, from the rights holders.
    I do agree, but I just wanted to take it one step further and say that makes piracy closer to fraud than theft. Either way doesn't exactly legitimise piracy. To me, "piracy is not theft" sounds a lot like "speeding is not drunk-driving". It's true, but irrelevant. I'd like to see someone try to get out of a speeding ticket by protesting that they're not drunk.

    But I do think the best anti-piracy measure is mitigating the risk to the consumer of buying a game. I don't believe people pirate games because they just want free stuff. Some do, but on the whole I think pirates just aren't prepared to make the gamble that the publishers are asking them to make. There's been a lot of talk about Steam sales "reducing the perceived value" of games, and I don't agree with that at all. It's about risk, not value. Steam sales reduce the risk that you might not enjoy a game. Paying 40 for a game you don't know whether or not you'll enjoy is kind of insane. Paying the price of lunch for it is an easy risk to take.

    Publishers understand this, but rather than reduce prices they've decided to minimise consumer risk by making games the appeal of which is so obvious it smacks you in the face. That does make for good games, but it doesn't make for special, surprising, 'magical' games, so on the whole I think it's bad for the creative industry. (Incidentally, although it's off-topic, those who resent this approach and make games heavily funded by the nostalgia bank aren't making surprising games either. Almost by definition. By faithful reproduction, they're missing the one thing that was actually good about old games.) On the other hand, I am encouraged by things like Kickstarter and Early Access, which show customers voluntarily taking on more risk, on the understanding that if they don't, the kind of game they're enthusiastic about might not get made.

    But on the note of risk, how can publishers complain about people pirating games to see what they're like if they won't release demos? They do want to minimise consumer risk (because they know that translates into more sales), but they also don't want to give consumers enough information to decide not to buy the game, and the two are kind of at odds with each other. This is the real greed of publishers. You can forget DLC practices and whatever - I have a lot to say about that, but this thread isn't really the place. Suffice to say I don't resent publishers trying to make money. But the real greed of publishers is that they can't bring themselves to let their customers know what they're buying. It's an irrational thing - I'm pretty sure that more people being prepared to take a chance on the game because their risk has been diminished would outweigh the people who, given appropriate information, decide not to buy it. Why should losing a customer because they said too much have a greater impact than gaining a customer because they've said enough for once? The only answer I can think of is greed.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegooseking View Post
    I do agree, but I just wanted to take it one step further and say that makes piracy closer to fraud than theft. Either way doesn't exactly legitimise piracy. To me, "piracy is not theft" sounds a lot like "speeding is not drunk-driving". It's true, but irrelevant. I'd like to see someone try to get out of a speeding ticket by protesting that they're not drunk.
    If "piracy is not theft" sounds the same as "speeding is not drunk-driving" to you, does "piracy is theft" not sound like "speeding is drunk-driving" and equally silly? They're two different crimes, they have things in common but they also have huge differences. When people are burgled, they often feel a sense of violation and increased feelings of vulnerability. As do people who are sexually assaulted. But no-one goes around and says "burglary is sexual assault".

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    If we're going to be pedantic about the terminology, then piracy isn't even the correct term for "piracy." Or well... now it *is* by default because this is the culturally acceptable term, but piracy literally refers to people on boats being dicks and hijacking and killing and looting and sailing on the seven seas.
    Which is why I'd argue that "Piracy is theft." is the single dumbest sentence in the English language. The term "copyright infringement" isn't sexy enough, apparently. So they're trying to make you think it's 'theft' instead. But they're using the term 'piracy', and in using that reminding you that, in the 80s, they decided "copyright infringement" wasn't sexy enough and tried to make people think it was 'piracy' instead. Then Johnny Depp came along and piracy became cool so now they need to try and change it yet again. In three words it's a sentence that manages to not only be incorrect, but demonstrate exactly why what it's trying to achieve is a stupid idea in the first place. The sheer economy of idiocy in those three words is ground-breaking!

  11. #51
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegooseking View Post
    I'd like to see someone try to get out of a speeding ticket by protesting that they're not drunk.
    You do realise that saying "piracy is not theft, it's copyright infringement" is not the same as saying "piracy is not wrong", right?
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  12. #52
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus thegooseking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    You do realise that saying "piracy is not theft, it's copyright infringement" is not the same as saying "piracy is not wrong", right?
    Yeah, I am aware of that, but it seems to me that if the claim (well, calling it a 'claim' suggests that it might not be true, which it is) is not being used as an excuse, then it's, at best, a distraction. I just have trouble seeing the relevance of it, or why it's so important.

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    If "piracy is not theft" sounds the same as "speeding is not drunk-driving" to you, does "piracy is theft" not sound like "speeding is drunk-driving" and equally silly?
    Absolutely. I do agree that "piracy is theft" is a silly thing to say. But I don't agree that people saying silly things really matters all that much. Derailing the point to address that doesn't seem to me like good discussion.
    Last edited by thegooseking; 25-07-2014 at 01:17 PM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegooseking View Post
    Yeah, I am aware of that, but it seems to me that if the claim (well, calling it a 'claim' suggests that it might not be true, which it is) is not being used as an excuse, then it's, at best, a distraction. I just have trouble seeing the relevance of it, or why it's so important.
    Again, exactly the same thing applies to the people who say 'piracy is theft' it's just a silly distraction. Nearly every time, they point that out first, at which point someone will point out why they are wrong. It's not the fault of the latter person that the discussion got derailed.

  14. #54
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    You wouldn't make a perfect free copy of a car you wouldn't make a perfect free copy of your liver,you wouldn't make a perfect free copy of your dead spouse.

    Oh 3D printers is their anything you can't do.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  15. #55
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Oh 3D printers is their anything you can't do.


    Is there anything they can do? They seem rather gimmicky at the moment.



  16. #56
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Which is why I'd argue that "Piracy is theft." is the single dumbest sentence in the English language. The term "copyright infringement" isn't sexy enough, apparently. So they're trying to make you think it's 'theft' instead. But they're using the term 'piracy', and in using that reminding you that, in the 80s, they decided "copyright infringement" wasn't sexy enough and tried to make people think it was 'piracy' instead. Then Johnny Depp came along and piracy became cool so now they need to try and change it yet again. In three words it's a sentence that manages to not only be incorrect, but demonstrate exactly why what it's trying to achieve is a stupid idea in the first place. The sheer economy of idiocy in those three words is ground-breaking!
    I agree it is silly we call it piracy :P

    Illegal file sharing, yes maybe we can call it fraud as someone put up. Or some other more similar term.

    But I do think it does have that aspect in common with theft, or stealing, in the way I said before... that you are stealing a privilege to access an article from the rights holder, who has the rights to distribute that article. That is kind of what software is, isn't it? Having the access and privilege to use a program. Not necessarily the mode in which it was duplicated.

    That does not seem so terribly inaccurate to me. It is a new phenomenon, illegal file sharing is, that it does not fit neatly and perfectly into any old concept I think is not a terribly huge deal IMO. I personally think it is still stealing, and that is stealing the privilege to use a program without the compensation of the developer.

    Maybe we can call it.... illegitimate use? Illegitimate software access? Is that more apt?

    But yes I think piracy is an incredibly stupid word, and thanks to Pirates of Caribbean for making it kewl for the kids at home :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    Is there anything they can do? They seem rather gimmicky at the moment.
    You can make innumerable permutations of a phallus I guess?
    Last edited by rockman29; 25-07-2014 at 03:43 PM.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    Is there anything they can do? They seem rather gimmicky at the moment.
    They seems good to create prosthetic pieces and prototypes.

    So one of these printers make a lot of sense in a lab where they build stuff, and no sense at all outside a lab, in somebody house.

    But arguably, they also have a value in coolness factor. "I own a 3D printer" is like a good way to start a conversation.


    If I where rich, I would have a hot girlfriend, a jetpack, a 3D printer and would drink cola in the beach.

  18. #58
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus thegooseking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Again, exactly the same thing applies to the people who say 'piracy is theft' it's just a silly distraction. Nearly every time, they point that out first, at which point someone will point out why they are wrong. It's not the fault of the latter person that the discussion got derailed.
    If there were remotely any balance between the two statements, to the point that one could be considered a response to the other, I might accept that, but I know I see "piracy is not theft" a lot more than I see "piracy is theft". It doesn't seem to matter if anyone actually says piracy is theft, we'll still see someone coming on to claim the opposite. Who in this thread said that piracy is theft before someone came in to say that it isn't? I've looked back over the thread and I can't find it, but I just sort of skimmed it. Why would anyone argue against a claim that is (a) silly, as we agree, and (b) hasn't actually been made?

  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    Is there anything they can do? They seem rather gimmicky at the moment.


    [/COLOR]
    As an industrial designer I'd love to get my hands on one.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    Is there anything they can do? They seem rather gimmicky at the moment.
    They're awesome if you have certain hobbies like model building or some kinds of art project.

    It solves the frustrating "I just need a little piece that is shaped like this but I don't have one right now and fabricating it by hand is going to be a pain in the ass" problem.

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