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  1. #61
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Eight Rooks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GameCat View Post
    MGS5 is about how and why Big Boss ended up as bad guy. It must involve lots of generally darker and fucked up shit. People don't change easily.
    You cannot simply switch from sickening violence, rape, war crimes, all the rest of it to slapstick comedy just like that and automatically have it "work". That's not how these things go. No-one's saying you can't have these things in the game - I'm certainly not saying that, at least - and no-one's saying you can't crack dumb jokes too but you have to be very careful about how you move between extremes. It's a hard thing to discuss because it's not like there's a correct way to do it, but there are film directors who most people agree can do it - it's a big thing in Hong Kong or Korean cinema, for example. Go watch a Tsui Hark movie, he's good at it. Unfortunately there are plenty of directors who don't have a clue. Yes, yes, videogames, not films, but I think a lot of the same rules still apply, and I don't think Kojima is or has ever been particularly good at doing this. Yes, there are always individual bits of both extremes in his games which are good, even great - Christ, I loathed The Boss but I still sniffled at Snake crying in front of her grave - but overall they're all pretty much a mess. I'm guessing a lot of people would agree.
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  2. #62
    Obscure Node Nivek TT's Avatar
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    I hope Ground Zeros and Phantom Pain are reasonably priced. I undertsand them to be very short!

  3. #63
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Eight Rooks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nivek TT View Post
    I hope Ground Zeros and Phantom Pain are reasonably priced. I undertsand them to be very short!
    Ground Zeroes is the short one (you can beat it in a few minutes if you know exactly what you're doing). Phantom Pain is the full game.
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  4. #64
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus neema_t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    Ground Zeroes is the short one (you can beat it in a few minutes if you know exactly what you're doing). Phantom Pain is the full game.
    You can beat one of the six, maybe now seven (actually I can't remember if Déjà Vu/Jamais Vu was the fifth or sixth, and I don't know if the PC version will include both - one was Playstation exclusive and the other Xbox exclusive) missions in about 8-10 minutes if you're really quick about it, and each mission has two difficulties. To 100% the entire thing requires more than just S-ranking every mission too, so no, you can't complete Ground Zeroes in a few minutes. Unless you buy entire games just to play one level, of course.

  5. #65
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nivek TT View Post
    I hope Ground Zeros and Phantom Pain are reasonably priced. I undertsand them to be very short!
    That's just Ground Zeroes. TPP may be very, very long :P

    There is actually quite a bit of content in GZ, it's just the single story mission that takes about 2 hours for someone who is familiar with MGS on the first run. Then there's a bunch of challenge missions.

    And yet in many other respects I think he's... if not a genius, then awfully close. A mad scientist, perhaps. A genuine auteur.
    Agree. He certainly have his own style, which I think it's really rare in gaming industry, especially when we're talking about AAA games. Take him out of MGS and you'll end up with Yet Another AAA Action Game.
    Yep!

  6. #66
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Eight Rooks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neema_t View Post
    You can beat one of the six, maybe now seven (actually I can't remember if Déjà Vu/Jamais Vu was the fifth or sixth, and I don't know if the PC version will include both - one was Playstation exclusive and the other Xbox exclusive) missions in about 8-10 minutes if you're really quick about it, and each mission has two difficulties. To 100% the entire thing requires more than just S-ranking every mission too, so no, you can't complete Ground Zeroes in a few minutes. Unless you buy entire games just to play one level, of course.
    Hey, hey, I was merely making an observation. I think you're over-selling it a bit, mind - these missions all take place in the same environment, right? And isn't one of them basically the "proper" story? - but I certainly don't find anything weird about wanting to replay a very short game multiple times to get your money's worth. It used to bug me no end (still does) when people dismissed Vanquish for much the same reason, say. From everything I've read I would not put Ground Zeroes on a par with a full game - it's a taster, a sampler, a demo, call it what you want - but I'm perfectly happy with Konami releasing it as a standalone, I don't think the fact you can clear the main mission in ten minutes if you rush reflects badly on it and I'll still happily buy it for myself if I can.
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  7. #67
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    It's a follow-up to PeaceWalker and that had one of the more coherent and interesting plots of the series (set as it was, decades before it got properly convoluted). Though it did have the bizarre sexual assualt level.

  8. #68
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    Hey, hey, I was merely making an observation. I think you're over-selling it a bit, mind - these missions all take place in the same environment, right? And isn't one of them basically the "proper" story? - but I certainly don't find anything weird about wanting to replay a very short game multiple times to get your money's worth. It used to bug me no end (still does) when people dismissed Vanquish for much the same reason, say. From everything I've read I would not put Ground Zeroes on a par with a full game - it's a taster, a sampler, a demo, call it what you want - but I'm perfectly happy with Konami releasing it as a standalone, I don't think the fact you can clear the main mission in ten minutes if you rush reflects badly on it and I'll still happily buy it for myself if I can.
    It's definitely not a full game. I think a reasonable price is $20 at the very most, though I did spend on it as I am a MGS nut. Not the nuttiest, but nutty enough to spend the $40.

    Content wise it is neither a full game, nor is it just 2 hours long.

    For me I was just really excited to get a taste of the nu-MGS5 gameplay and the full dose of that was worth it for me, again as a MGS fan.

    I suspect they will sell the main game for regular $50/60 on Steam, with GZ in a Deluxe edition for $10 more on Steam or something.

  9. #69
    Lesser Hivemind Node TWChristine's Avatar
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    I like to consider myself a huge fan of the MGS series (granted, I still haven't gotten around to playing MGS4 much past the octopus lady..not because I haven't enjoyed it, but I just can't get myself to bother with consoles often), and I have to agree with most of what you said Gundato. I know they're cheesy, but I found they were dealing with important issues in their own way and I respected that. I also have no problem with the amount of cutscenes, as I quite enjoyed them.

    With that said, I was incredibly excited when I heard about GZ and TPP. After seeing some trailers and gameplay of GZ though I was pretty turned off with the fact that it was so short and seemed to lack substance while being priced at what it is. So I said, ah well, I'll just wait for TPP instead! The initial trailers seemed pretty neat as well until I started seeing the ones with the fulton aspect and now the extent they took the box. I know I don't have to use either options during a playthrough, but I worry that it's gone from cheesy to just plain old stupid. I'll probably wait to see if there's a free demo, but otherwise I'm thinking I might end up passing on this one as well. :/
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  10. #70
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    I was just annoyed he ran about shooting people and everyone was like "what an awesome stealth game" pfft, conviction did that and everyone complained and tranq darts are less practical than bullets.
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  11. #71
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GameCat View Post
    He was captured, she was the only one who didn't threated him like shit. Call it Stockholm Syndrome if you want, but hey, why this is "tone issue"? sigh...
    The rest of the sentence that you intentionally ignored?


    MGS5 is about how and why Big Boss ended up as bad guy. It must involve lots of generally darker and fucked up shit.
    People don't change easily.
    Okay, then give it the reverence it deserves. You don't get to be a "fun and lighthearted game" while you are trying to be Super Serious. it takes a VERY special storyteller to pull off that level of mood whiplash that frequently, and Kojima ain't it. He can tell a GREAT "semi-dramatic action movie", but this ain't that.

    The thing is, Kojima CAN do dark and tragic (and he arguably already told the story of why Big Boss was a "bad guy"). Spoilers for MGS3

    The ending is all kinds of Feels. The Boss is dead, and she died for nothing but the greed of the people she considered her allies. An amazing person's life was thrown away and the world will never know of her sacrifice. Super sad feels time.
    How does Kojima approach it? you have the super fun fight against Volkov (or whatever his name was) where you and EVA are blowing the shit out of EVERYTHING and are basically grinning and having fun. Then EVA gets injured and you have to drag her through the forest, where the fun bits stop and it starts getting serious. Then The Boss. You get a brief bit of levity from Ocelot, but that falls more into the "Wow... that guy was fucking with us even when he was in diapers" and less "Ha ha ha ha", and then it shows Snake dying on the inside and becoming Big Boss.


    THAT was a good way to reconcile "Metal Gear Solid == Zany Antics" with "Dramatic Feels Time". Whereas the MGS5 demo was all about throwing people in refrigerators and trying to simultaneously have "Ha ha, you are super awesome badass man!" with "Rape a bomb into her!".
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  12. #72
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Rape a bomb into her?

  13. #73
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    It's not that actually, but it's not far off the mark.

    The spoiler is... one of the characters is raped and also has a bomb placed into her abdomen through a laparotomy (re: opening the belly basically with a big incision), which explodes in front of Big Boss. And this is a character very close to Big Boss.

  14. #74
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Yeah, I was exaggerating for humor, but sadly not by much...

    Also, for an example of what happens when they go completely off the deep end in the other direction, Metal Gear Rising was fucking amazing and is my favorite Metal Gear period. And if you don't care about spoilers (honestly, the plot doesn't make enough sense for the spoilers to matter and I have a feeling Kojima is going to disown it anyway): the end of Jesse Cox's spectacular Full Play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M4h...dex=35&list=WL
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  15. #75
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    There is a lot of awesome substance in MGS1/2/3 I think, those are definitely my favourites.

    Much less dark/noire-y-ness in those games. They take on very interesting themes. MGS1 - 2 - 3 correspond to 3 distinct themes.

    MGS1's is Gene. Related to the genes in Solid Snake and Liquid Snake that are common and derived from Big Boss. It also relates to genetic evolution and natural selection with the FOXDIE virus which kills several characters in the game through their genes.

    MGS2's is Memory. Probably many threads, there are a lot of mini-stories within the game about mothers and children and characters being barren and other things, re: how they propagate their memories and culture, same is mentioned at the end of the game, what is passed on through generations, not just genes but culture and memories. For Raiden the "memory" thread is about what his identity is. Raiden is almost literally meant to be "the player" as he is supposed to be this blank slate with nothing, and like the player you learn to do all the things Solid Snake does and defeat Metal Gear, again, like Solid Snake has done so many times before. For the antagonist the memory thread is this whole deal with this digital memory and AI called GW that supposedly controls everything, and I guess there is some undercurrent of opposing fate somewhere in there as well. It also has aspects of scene from MGS3 in which Raiden is meant to be sculpted by his experience into another Solid Snake.

    MGS3's is Scene. The environment plays a massive role in the gameplay, much more so than in past games, as far as blending into your environment using camouflage and survival in hostile enemy territory and natural environment. It also doubles as the "scene" or circumstances/exposures of Big Boss that change him into who he is by the time Peace Walker starts.

    Of any of the first three games, MGS1 is probably the most impeccably made and consistent. It just feels perfect as a game and experience. MGS2 is probably the weirdest, and most infuriating to many because it replaced Snake with Raiden for most of the game. And MGS3 is probably the most rich game in terms of gameplay design and in illustrating great characters.

    MGS4 was a crap ton of fan service and craziness than I don't think needed to happen. They turned one of the infamous characters "Johnny Sasaki" who always has diarrhea into a main character for some reason.... lol. And It tried to close too many loose ends at once and I think it really diluted the overall experience. It's an awesome game, but I don't feel it holds the same amazing standard of the first 3 Solid games.

    Probably a lot of other things I didn't mention but those are the big things. But I should digress a bit I guess, this thread is about the PC version of TPP :D

    I just think the MGS series is damn rich in history and substance, probably one of the most rich and unique experiences in gaming period, extremely happy more people will be introduced to it. There's always these discussions on the web about "oh what is the best stealth series, MGS or this or this or this" and not only do those not usually give credit to how much MGS does right in it's own version of stealth which is incredible creative and fun to play with, but it ignores that MGS is not only a great stealth series but it's many, many things more than that to a lot of people as well.

    I can only hope the other games come to PC sooner than later again, and with reasonable control schemes even if it will still only play well on a controller pad... as long as it works and plays well with something.

  16. #76
    Activated Node seshFriend's Avatar
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    I was a die hard MGS fan for many years...

    I used to LOVE MGS. The original for Playstation is the reason I started gaming seriously.

    MGS4 ruined the series for me. I've vested so much time in the series up to that point (accepting the games' bizarre twists and increasingly corny cut-scenes) when MGS4 came out it was a severe kick in the shins to say the least. While there were some good design choices in terms of gameplay, the game was a glorified walking tour. Go from point A to point B, watch cut-scene, fight occasional silly boss fight.

    I've since all but cut off my ties to the console world entirely (if the NHL games were on PC I would not own a console most likely). Maybe this game will bring me back into the fold of the MGS universe. I hope it does because despite the massive let down of the 4th game, the MGS series still holds a special place in my heart.

    EDIT: I forgot to mention that the plot of MGS4 just took the MGS saga by the arse and had its way with it absolutely ruining all the development from the beginning of the series up to the very end of the game (although some of this really started in MGS2) by just sharting on it with the final cut-scene, which was at least 22 hours.
    Last edited by seshFriend; 16-08-2014 at 04:11 PM.

  17. #77
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Yea MGS4 was all over the place... :(

    Lol. A lot of what was explained in MGS4 to be what "actually happened" was kind of tame and just plain odd lol. It would have gone better if they just did not try to explain anything at all... :P

    The game itself is really fun, the MP was really weird and fun as well lol, but story wise I kind of just ignore it lol. There was like two or three scenes in the ending which were awesome, but the other 75% of footage was just like... ermmm.... ok..... lol.
    Last edited by rockman29; 16-08-2014 at 04:41 PM.

  18. #78
    Activated Node seshFriend's Avatar
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    I liked the gameplay from a mechanics stand point. There was a lot of fun stuff you could do with the camoflauge and some of the other toys. My main issue was just that most of the level design didn't leverage these mechanics very well. To enjoy the gameplay you had stop and mess around. If you were pursuing the objective it was not particularly interesting with a few exceptions I guess.

    I think we can agree that they really shouldn't have tied up the loose ends, well at least not the way they did.
    Last edited by seshFriend; 16-08-2014 at 04:52 PM. Reason: misspelled they in the last sentence lol

  19. #79
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Eight Rooks's Avatar
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    I'd pretty much take issue with a good deal of the praise (okay, some of it faint) for Kojima's storytelling here. Christ, I cannot stress enough how much I hated The Boss. One of the most infuriatingly annoying characters I've ever come across in a videogame, right up there with Minsc and Claptrap - perhaps more so, in some ways, given I actually turned the sound off during her final speech to avoid having to listen. God. No aspect of her design worked for me (mechanically, too - I was stuck on fighting her forever because I hadn't used CQC once up until that point, and suddenly I was practically forced to learn it).

    And yet bear in mind I still sniffled at that scene where Snake says goodbye. That's how much I like Kojima as a visual director and a stylist.
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  20. #80
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    Why you hated The Boss?

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