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Thread: Puppygames rant

  1. #1
    Lesser Hivemind Node frightlever's Avatar
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    Puppygames rant

    So after getting into it with our upstanding comment trolls yesterday, he's clearly off on one.

    http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1574

    Meh.

    And lastly, the worst, most hideous truth at all, and thereís a bit of history behind it.

    You are worthless to us.

    What? Did he just say that? I? Your fucking customer? You just said your customers were worthless! Fuck you!!!!11!1!! Iím never buying anything from you again! Iím even going to uninstall all your games you ignorant self-important cunt! How dare you speak to me, your customer, like that?

    Woah there, inflamed of Tunbridge Wells. Letís just rewind a second and analyse that statement for a moment. How did we get here? Let me count the ways.

  2. #2
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    A great deal of truth in that, I admit. I'm quite looking forward to the day a triple-A studio first commits properly to F2P, and/or Steam completes its transition into the App Store/Google Play/thousands upon thousands of separate walled gardens, and people wander the internet shellshocked, asking each other "But but but what happened?" His tone makes me uncomfortable - I don't have a problem with developers getting confrontational, I think acting "professional" is wildly, wildly over-rated, but I still think Phil Fish behaved like a dick, much as I love Fez and would happily buy anything else he made if he came back to the industry. It's not something to condemn, but it's not something to praise either. Still, yeah, many, many perfectly valid points.

    At the same time I've never played or had any interest in anything Puppygames have ever done, at full price or otherwise, and... I hate to fall into his trap, but this really won't change that one way or the other. <_<

  3. #3
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    Nah, they've got a real victim mentality, everyone else is 'the mob'. I'm all for speaking the truth, but if you start denigrating your reader for no good reason, calling them worthless, responding to criticism by saying 'we don't need you and would prefer not to have whiney fucks like you as customers'.... that's not cool.

    They may be having a bad time of it, seems like they might be having a bit of a breakdown. But when they post stuff like that I am not surprised if the response is 'go fuck yourself'.

  4. #4
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    I seem to have missed something, but the tone of that was more than a bit dickish and since he's using Phil Fish as an example, well, the risk of losing sales isn't the only reason to not be a cock to people.

  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    How a developer acts does have a pretty big impact on my purchasing choices... and if people are honest with themselves here, they'll admit to it too. The difference is that I'll happily refuse to purchase indie games and AAA games based on developer/publisher actions instead of just blaming EA for everything. EDIT: By which I mean there's a tendency to go "It's AAA and from EA so I won't play" in gaming communities today. I didn't buy Fez because Phil Fish is a complete arse and I won't buy anything else he makes either. The reverence for Phil Fish is disturbing. Fish told people to suck his dick after he won an award. If that's what he really thinks, he's a total arsehat. Also Fish got rich because he made a good game, not because he was a total prick. If Fez was shit, he wouldn't be revered; he'd be a pathetic joke.

    Regarding the article itself: Indie game devs get more nasty shit from gamers than they get praise? No, game developers get more nasty shit than praise, it doesn't matter if you're AAA or indie. Hell AAA can be derided as being shit simply because it's AAA. And it's not specific to the game industry. Anything you do or don't do will piss people off. In emergency healthcare we never do enough or we do too much, we don't (we can't) please everyone, and we will always hear more criticism than praise. That's because people don't often praise good work - it's just expected that you do a good or decent job. When you do something wrong, you will hear about it because it's much worse.

    The endless race to the bottom with falling game prices is a product of constant Steam sales and those fucking bundles - and guess what, we drove that one, and we continue to drive it by waiting for sales. That's the catch-cry on RPS - never buy on release, wait for sales, you're an idiot if you pay full price. And they're totally right that we're now worthless because we're paying such little amounts, and we expect those prices, that we're not worth much at all. If Eight Rooks' future comes true, we're going to have ourselves to blame.

    That said, customers are hardly worthless since they are paying you something. To decide that we're all worthless because a whiny few (which will rally against anything if given the chance) pop up and complain is a hell of a blanket attack to make. Gamers in general are pretty shitty, but they are giving you money in return for your product, so it pays to play nice. Valve oscillate between being hopelessly inept and remarkably endearing when communicating with their user base, and that's mostly responsible for putting Steam in its revered place (despite effectively being the biggest DRM platform around). Perhaps if Puppygames are receiving a lot of complaints, maybe they are actually doing something wrong? I don't really have much of a history with them, so I wouldn't know.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  6. #6
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    They are hints in the text and outside it that this is a desperate call for help.

    To me puppygames make good games, they are fun and they are sexy looking. Just not enough.

    Competition betwen games means the devs of Divinity Sins can ask 40$ for his game, but somebody making a simple shot-en-up will have a hard time asking more than 1$.

  7. #7
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Seems like unnecessary escalation of harmful words.

    It's not like they have to respond to every random buyer's hateful attacks?

    I also consider the friendliness and customer service or anything else I find important as part of the service/game I'm buying from a developer or publisher. I just don't feel comfortable giving money to a company/person(s) that I don't feel treat me or others fairly.
    The endless race to the bottom with falling game prices is a product of constant Steam sales and those fucking bundles - and guess what, we drove that one, and we continue to drive it by waiting for sales. That's the catch-cry on RPS - never buy on release, wait for sales, you're an idiot if you pay full price.
    Yea that might be a bad thing for PC games actually, it's true.

    I think it does devalue games. I think if Steam was not so aggressive with the timing of sales (75% off only months after a game release) it might help. I guess it makes it riskier for everyone who tries to do those bigger games possibly. And then there are F2P games straddling the line between AAA and F2P which is cool too.

    I think if people love a game or series enough, they should try to support their developers. But really it's all up to that person in the end.

    I don't mind spending full price, though usually I buy in the $30 dollar range now, which is not peanuts but not expensive for me either, for relatively new games. Except lately I've been paying full price for every PS4 disc title, but that's just for early generation :P
    Last edited by rockman29; 19-08-2014 at 02:50 PM.

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    So really, if I look past all the broad sweeping attacks, the rage and the teenage rebel attitude, all I see is points that have been made before and usually with better words as well*. I don't see any of the self ascribed bravery of daring to bring this to light. What I do see is someone in understandable emotional stress due to the threat of bankcruptcy, having a disagreement with a particular customer and needing to vent, because that was just the final drip in the basket.
    And that's okay to me, but come on, pick your targets. Broad sweeping attacks only poison the well even more. Want to detox the well? Go for the poisonous elements, don't add more toxin on top. It's just venting with a nuclear approach, touching on discourses that have had actually smart debates happening around them here and there.

    * the points made being, regardless of whether I agree or disagree:
    - Think twice about being part of Bundles
    - The race to the bottom is hurting the industry
    - Phil Fish is a Rockstar, with all connotations that entails.
    - No such thing as bad publicity
    - Saying Fuck Tigsource is a maturity rite to go from Indie to ★INDIE★.**
    - It doesn't pay off to offer support for all issues

    ** No, really. All the popular ones did it. Phil Fish, Notch, Jonathan Blow, Edmund Mc Millen and many more.
    Last edited by theForged; 19-08-2014 at 03:05 PM.

  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Indie game devs get more nasty shit from gamers than they get praise? No, game developers get more nasty shit than praise, it doesn't matter if you're AAA or indie. Hell AAA can be derided as being shit simply because it's AAA. And it's not specific to the game industry. Anything you do or don't do will piss people off.
    Yeah but bigger developers have somewhat of a buffer. They’ve got PR people, the teams are large enough that an attack on the work isn’t as emotionally damaging as having your nerve endings on display in an Indi game, and it’s more difficult for the dregs of gamer or internet culture to get personal with the insults and distribute blame on a single worker. Unless she’s a woman of course.

    Can't find the Puppygames rant by the way, think the site is being flooded with traffic.
    Last edited by Drake Sigar; 19-08-2014 at 02:54 PM.

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    There are some good points there, and I can feel his pain when having to deal with people that don't understand tech.

    There seems to be a huge problem with people with Intel Integrated Graphics not working with games and shouting at devs to fix it. I remember Simon Roth from Maia went out of his way to fix issues with them even though they were far below the minimum specs for the game, he just wanted people to stop filling his inbox with demands for it to work on their 5 year old laptop.


    My only real problem with the article is the tone, but I can understand the annoyance if what they say in the comments is true

    A friend of a friend told me that he tried to set the price of his game to some figure or other but that Valve vetoed it and set it to something else. It absolutely didn’t happen to us and even if it did we’re not allowed to talk about it, no, not at all.
    If Valve are setting prices for indies then that is screwed up, and it would really annoy me too.

    That being said the games they make are fun but always felt throwaway to me. I could play 10-20 min while waiting for a download or just to kill time.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    Yeah but bigger developers have somewhat of a buffer. They’ve got PR people, the teams are large enough that an attack on the work isn’t as emotionally damaging as having your nerve endings on display in an Indi game, and it’s more difficult for the dregs of gamer or internet culture to get personal with the insults and distribute blame on a single worker. Unless she’s a woman of course.
    Oh, I don't know. Remember the Call of Duty guy getting death threats when they rebalanced weapon stats by .002% or whatever it was?

    Quote Originally Posted by theForged View Post
    * the points made being, regardless of whether I agree or disagree:
    You're kind of missing his main point there - that most of the time it's simply not worth it to an indie developer to bother going out of their way to deal with customers' problems, because the kind of people who will complain to an indie developer about things are complaining about stuff where the financial return on fixing their problem simply doesn't justify the effort. He specifically says - for example - that their Linux sales, compared to the time they spent trying to get things working for Linux, don't begin to justify it.
    Last edited by Eight Rooks; 19-08-2014 at 02:58 PM.

  12. #12
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Trolls get a bad deal. Trolls are completely harmless* without people getting upset by them, and he did. There's a reason "Don't feed the troll" came into usage, sometimes the 'victim' more responsible for the failure of dialogue than the troll. I had genuine questions and commentary during that comments section, but I was put off by princec's attitude to the trolls. Don't get me wrong, Puppy Games really seem to be on the ropes and this is awful, but they are an independent business in a developing market, it's always a gamble. But this isn't the trolls fault. Basingstoke excited me, and princec pissed that away in double quick time.

    *Not the Dicks that newspapers write about who take the piss out of victims of various things, that's not trolling, a troll waits under a bridge and lets others make mistakes, its about patience, the billy goats gruff wanted something that wasn't theirs to take, free passage.
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    (On the general race to the bottom problem)

    Is it Steam? Is it the Developers, is it the customers racing to the bottom?

    Do sales give a greater number of purchases, thus more overall profit? (10 sales at £2 instead of 3 sales at £3)

    It's not as clear cut as "lower prices are a problem". There is also valid competition in the mix, should that be stifled because others don't like it? Though I agree there is unfair competition.

    What if someone wanted to release a game for free, because they could? Are they now putting people out of work? Why find it a thing to fight over, instead of something to try to work with?

    Never put better than: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044876/

    Many forms of art hit a saturation point. Gaming seems to be currently. So those involved are in a need to look for where there is still "work" and "profit" to be made and how to encourage customers to purchase. Though sadly I doubt an entire industry would go in the right direction, but will instead be pulled by greedy or misinformed influences (both as developers and consumers).
    It is a technical difference, but's there none the less.

  14. #14
    Tone aside, this really hits home for me point being made is something I have been worrying about for quite a while.

    Everyone likes cheap games, but you don't get something for nothing. The value of our individual dollar/euro/pound/whatever currency you use "votes" has severely diminished. This can have all sorts of potential side effects, including a homogenization effects, increasing the impact of factors other than the content of the game itself (piracy rates, store page aesthetics, community trends).

    Perhaps I am pessimistic and/or paranoid, but lately I've had more than enough worrying scenarios regarding this topic bouncing around to keep me up at night.
    Actually seeing a developer acknowledge it that specifically is definitely not helping.
    Last edited by Professor Paul1290; 19-08-2014 at 03:05 PM.

  15. #15
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    Oh, I don't know. Remember the Call of Duty guy getting death threats when they rebalanced weapon stats by .002% or whatever it was?
    Well, more difficult in comparison to Indi developers, which still isn’t very. The fire rate of some gun was changed to 0.2 of a second slower or something trivial along those lines.

  16. #16
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    (On the general race to the bottom problem)

    Is it Steam? Is it the Developers, is it the customers racing to the bottom?

    Do sales give a greater number of purchases, thus more overall profit? (10 sales at £2 instead of 3 sales at £3)
    There's been examples of how sales have boosted both purchases and profit for games over it's lifespan. I think the S.P.A.Z guys or someone similar had a very good break down of the games sales over times and how when it ends up on sale or in bundles it was a boost for the developers.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    You're kind of missing his main point there - that most of the time it's simply not worth it to an indie developer to bother going out of their way to deal with customers' problems, because the kind of people who will complain to an indie developer about things are complaining about stuff where the financial return on fixing their problem simply doesn't justify the effort. He specifically says - for example - that their Linux sales, compared to the time they spent trying to get things working for Linux, don't begin to justify it.
    That isn't his main point, not by a far mile. But it's a point I missed to list, so I've added it.

  18. #18
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    For what little it's worth, I basically don't believe that the way the market will end up is how it "should" be. I'm cynical enough I don't believe the majority of people care (beyond a brief twinge of guilt) about paying what's fair for something good. Hell, I think the idea that "if you make something good it will sell/attract attention/whatever" is one of the stupidest pieces of modern wisdom going, up there with "the customer is always right". I don't think you can ignore where the market is headed, same as with any creative medium, and I'm not sure anyone ought to forcibly stop it going there even if such a thing were possible.

    But I think a lot of the responses to people complaining about it are rooted in the same silly fuck-The-Man thinking the internet likes so much, the same school of thought that insisted Kickstarter was going to be nothing but rainbows and kittens and power to the little people and who really needs publishers, anyway? The race to the bottom is a very, very real thing, and it's not rooted in any notion of equality and fairness and what something is "worth" - it's just the typical human desire to get as much as possible for as little as possible, because hell, if <creative X> can't keep creating, it must be down to something they did wrong, right? And there'll be someone else along soon enough.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    Well, more difficult in comparison to Indi developers, which still isn’t very. The fire rate of some gun was changed to 0.2 of a second slower or something trivial along those lines.
    I don't know... I get really mad when Oxeye change the jumping/moving/item/drops/shield/score/controls to Cobalt every update. I know it's Alpha, but how would you feel if someone tied your laces in knots every week?

    /pines for Alpha v0.2 or similar rollback for games. :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    There's been examples of how sales have boosted both purchases and profit for games over it's lifespan. I think the S.P.A.Z guys or someone similar had a very good break down of the games sales over times and how when it ends up on sale or in bundles it was a boost for the developers.
    I've got S.P.A.Z. and not sure if that was the one. Other developers have posted stats, and mention they made the most profit during big sales. Others mention they made more money AFTER the sales, when the prices went back up, as customers kept purchasing even though the discount had finished.

    Though things like publicity and multilayer (encouragement from friends having a copy getting you to join in) can all make a difference. Sometimes it fails, like StrikeVector, which I wanted to get, never played the free weekend, got in a £5 bundle, and still have not played. Why? Time. I just don't have the time for MP only games right now, even though it's a great type of game (loved the old Descent back in the day).
    Last edited by TechnicalBen; 19-08-2014 at 03:16 PM.
    It is a technical difference, but's there none the less.

  20. #20
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    (On the general race to the bottom problem)

    Is it Steam? Is it the Developers, is it the customers racing to the bottom?

    Do sales give a greater number of purchases, thus more overall profit? (10 sales at £2 instead of 3 sales at £3)

    It's not as clear cut as "lower prices are a problem". There is also valid competition in the mix, should that be stifled because others don't like it? Though I agree there is unfair competition.
    It's definitely more complicated, I agree.

    And unfair too, definitely. I am happy with how some larger publishers help smaller developers and publishers out with games. I think more could be done with more sharing and communication.

    Most of the big publishers though just seem a lot more territorial and hell bent on the upcoming financial line... EA's Hardline epitomizes that to me lol.
    For what little it's worth, I basically don't believe that the way the market will end up is how it "should" be.
    Agree very much. I am not a believer in "whatever happens is because it's the best and the free market etc etc etc."

    It will become what it is through the actions of publishers/developers/consumers and the circumstances guiding them as well. Might be worse in some ways, might be better. It'll change into something, but can't be sure that will be best for everyone or even anyone.

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