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Thread: Puppygames rant

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    There's been examples of how sales have boosted both purchases and profit for games over it's lifespan. I think the S.P.A.Z guys or someone similar had a very good break down of the games sales over times and how when it ends up on sale or in bundles it was a boost for the developers.
    No-one with any sense is arguing that it can't work, but some people seem to like to insinuate that if it worked for one person, clearly it must work for everyone, so if it didn't work for you then your game must just be rubbish.

  2. #22
    Activated Node seshFriend's Avatar
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    I have never played any games by Puppy Games, I looked at the titles on this website and they all seem pretty standard derivative indie game style titles. RTS Tower Defence, space invaders tribute, arena shooter, etc. There are so many companies out there making the same exact types of games. More than there has ever been before.

    As for the article I could really care less how this guy feels about the customers. There are far more indie developers than there have ever been and plenty of them are doing just fine. Sure there are some that go under and it is sad to see, but unless you are a big enough company that you can influence legislation, that is the way capitalism works.

    I'm not a fan of a lot of the small casual games that are coming out of indie studios these days so my view is biased, but I don't see why Puppy Game should survive with their catalog when other indie developers are making games like Transistor or Divinity Original Sin. Albeit those are probably larger studios but "indie" none the less.
    Last edited by seshFriend; 19-08-2014 at 08:27 PM. Reason: wording

  3. #23
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus vinraith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    A great deal of truth in that, I admit. I'm quite looking forward to the day a triple-A studio first commits properly to F2P, and/or Steam completes its transition into the App Store/Google Play/thousands upon thousands of separate walled gardens, and people wander the internet shellshocked, asking each other "But but but what happened?"
    Yup. Nobody wants to hear it, but we're headed in some worrying directions and I'm really not sure there's anything the individual consumer can really do about it anymore. Vogel's piece from awhile back really summed up the problem beautifully.

    http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.co.uk/201...s-popping.html
    Last edited by vinraith; 19-08-2014 at 09:19 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinraith View Post
    Yup. Nobody wants to hear it, but we're headed in some worrying directions and I'm really not sure there's anything the individual consumer can really do about it anymore. Vogel's piece from awhile back really summed up the problem beautifully.
    Not that I totally disagree with you on this, but... calm down there, or Helio will have to bust out his fanfiction skills again. ;)

  5. #25
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kelron's Avatar
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    I'll take this as a reminder that game developers can be angry internet men too. Maybe he's making a valid point, but I don't want to read something that comes across as a guy yelling and swearing.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelron View Post
    I'll take this as a reminder that game developers can be angry internet men too. Maybe he's making a valid point, but I don't want to read something that comes across as a guy yelling and swearing.
    See, it does honestly puzzle me when people totally dismiss creative types based on how they comport themselves. Really, I'm not trolling. I wouldn't want to go for a drink with Phil Fish, but I loved Fez, I still love Fez, and I'd happily buy whatever future games the man might have wanted to make. Tomonobu Itagaki seems like he might not be a totally nice person, but the first 3D Ninja Gaiden's still a work of god damned genius. I can accept it if the creator's done something really terrible, and/or their personality and beliefs come through in what they've made - that was one reason I stopped listening to black metal and why I don't think I could buy anything Orson Scott Card's involved with now. But just because they behave like a stroppy teenager or a sleaze, etc.? Perhaps I'm just not principled enough, I dunno.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    No-one with any sense is arguing that it can't work, but some people seem to like to insinuate that if it worked for one person, clearly it must work for everyone, so if it didn't work for you then your game must just be rubbish.
    Well, it cannot work for everyone. If a game has millions sunk into it, then can it be heavily discounted?
    It's a fine balance between demand (consumer purchase number) and costs (development time). Distribution is practically zero now, though companies (publishers/stores/banks/tax) will take a cut of every purchase. But mainly it's advertising and gameplay/art driving demand, and the developer choosing the price.

    For all it's worth, at least Steam appear to be giving the tools to the developers, so they know when/how to change the price (up or down).
    It is a technical difference, but's there none the less.

  8. #28
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    In the comments thread back there whoever from Puppygames says "I don't think we've mdae particuarly good games" so perhaps I'm wrong.

    But I though I remembered reading a rant before from them about how Revenge of the Titans (and some of their other games) would have done much better if all those idiot gamers out there just realised the works of genious they had created.

  9. #29
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    It's an entitlement issue on BOTH sides usually.

    People who spend ANY money (or quite possibly just some time as free game developers get this too) will rage like crazy that something doesn't work and DEMAND things

    On the flipside tho, developers have this idea that they are 'entitled' to a return on their efforts/respect for what they do which just isn't true either.

    End of the day you cannot denigrate or insult your customers because it ALWAYS goes wrong - you cannot run a business without fawning and pandering to your customers - it just doesn't work.

  10. #30
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kelron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    See, it does honestly puzzle me when people totally dismiss creative types based on how they comport themselves. Really, I'm not trolling. I wouldn't want to go for a drink with Phil Fish, but I loved Fez, I still love Fez, and I'd happily buy whatever future games the man might have wanted to make. Tomonobu Itagaki seems like he might not be a totally nice person, but the first 3D Ninja Gaiden's still a work of god damned genius. I can accept it if the creator's done something really terrible, and/or their personality and beliefs come through in what they've made - that was one reason I stopped listening to black metal and why I don't think I could buy anything Orson Scott Card's involved with now. But just because they behave like a stroppy teenager or a sleaze, etc.? Perhaps I'm just not principled enough, I dunno.
    No comment on his games, haven't played them. What I'm talking about is his argument. He's descending to the level of the people he's complaining about, and comes off the worse for it.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelron View Post
    No comment on his games, haven't played them. What I'm talking about is his argument. He's descending to the level of the people he's complaining about, and comes off the worse for it.
    Yes, I assumed that was what you meant. Apologies if I didn't make that clear. I am saying I don't really understand the whole "Please, stop swearing/being aggressive/etc., it's totally unprofessional" thing. I don't agree that it is automatically descending to anyone's level, or that it necessarily harms the point anyone's trying to make. I get uncomfortable reading that blog post because I don't like being told I'm worthless, but I can clearly see how, to him, in a business sense, I am - so the anger and aggression seem pretty justifiable to me. It gets me thinking "What? What???", prompts me to read further and to pay attention to try and find out what he's implying. If he'd calmly laid out that same argument I'd have been a lot more inclined to simply gloss over it, or to think "Oh, well, you don't mean worthless" and dismiss the whole thing.

  12. #32
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    I am saying I don't really understand the whole "Please, stop swearing/being aggressive/etc., it's totally unprofessional" thing. I don't agree that it is automatically descending to anyone's level, or that it necessarily harms the point anyone's trying to make.
    Because there's nothing to be gained by making things emotional. Especially with topics that are best discussed with a clear and calm mind. Similarly, when someone on the street walks up to me, starts swearing and insulting me, I don't take the time to get to the bottom of it and whether that person has a point. Instead, I flip him the finger and walk away. On the other hand if that same person calmly states the issue I'll listen to it, give it some thought and I will act accordingly.
    It's the 101 of conflict resolution. I've never ever once solved a conflict by engaging in a shouting match and I've never seen it work either in my whole life. It scars, it damages, it draws lines and challenges. Nothing to be gained from appearing angry and unprofessional. On the flipside you can garner good will with a well thought out reply, like Vogel has often done for himself. I deeply respect Vogel and will listen to what he has to say, even if I don't necessarily agree with him. I however couldn't care less about what Caspian says, if he insists on saying it the way he does. All he achieves is basically a flipped finger.

    /Edit:
    Well nothing gained isn't exactly right. The person does gain something from it, the ability to vent anger and that's a healthy thing to do, in controlled circumstances. Although I'd be willing to bet that the negative response to the venting will outweigh the benefits of venting.
    Last edited by theForged; 19-08-2014 at 10:40 PM.

  13. #33
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    I dunno.

    Tone matters to me. I buy Dave Gilbert games on day one because I love they guy and the games he puts out. On the flip side I didn't buy Fez solely because I think Fish is an arse and I don't like rewarding arsery by buying their products. I'm told that Fez is brilliant but that doesn't really matter to me. I also didn't buy that Jon Blow game because I really don't like Jon Blow. And then I bought Gone Home on day one because I like the premise and because I like Steve Gaynor. I buy tons of indie games at full price. But not from people like Fish.

    I try to treat people with respect and I expect them to do the same, to me or anyone else.

    So to me, tone matters.

    As for his points about Steam sales and the like I think he's spot on. Valve is doing stuff that aren't good in the long run with Steam. Not just the sales. The eco system, the DRM, the DLC nonsense, the cash shops and so on and so on.

    He is right there. But so is Jeff Vogel and he's not an insufferable dick when he writes.

    He's also right that I'm worthless to him though. I've never bought any of their games. I don't even really know what sort of games they make.
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  14. #34
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    "Grow up" is all I have to say to this. Anything more is giving him more attention than he deserves.
    Last edited by DanMan; 19-08-2014 at 10:57 PM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by theForged View Post
    Because there's nothing to be gained by making things emotional. Especially with topics that are best discussed with a clear and calm mind.
    Again, I basically don't agree, or at least I don't think topics related to the games industry fit the bill anywhere near as often as people seem to assume they do. There's a difference between basically screaming in people's faces and "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take it any more", and I think an awful lot of people who discuss the games industry - working professionals or otherwise - aren't willing to acknowledge that. If someone walks up to me and screams at fever pitch about something or other, sure, I'll run away. That doesn't accomplish anything. But if someone's just angry about that same topic, I generally want to know why they're angry, to at least give them the benefit of the doubt.

    And again, sometimes if I can see they care enough about something to get angry about it, while still clearly raising perfectly valid points, I'll be more inclined to listen than if they just went for neutered corporate-speak. I'm perfectly serious when I say I worry that people's willingness to fall straight back on "How dare you, sir! For pity's sake, stop shouting!" is directly linked to the prevalence of ghastly we-do-not-comment-on-rumour-and-speculation babble that passes for PR these days. I don't want everyone yelling at each other. I don't want to stop people from criticising the next Phil Fish or whoever. But I would like to see more creatives in public-facing positions in the videogames industry allowed to behave like human beings without the only response being everyone dropping their monocles in shock. These things aren't boardroom negotiations or closing statements to the court or anything so formal and codified, and people should stop insisting that they ought to be.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    But I would like to see more creatives in public-facing positions in the videogames industry allowed to behave like human beings without the only response being everyone dropping their monocles in shock. These things aren't boardroom negotiations or closing statements to the court or anything so formal and codified, and people should stop insisting that they ought to be.
    See Vogel. Or any of the other Indie Devs that have talked about industry issues, often quite frank and didn't resort to blank sweeping attacks on their customers.

    /Edit:
    And I guess we're just plain different that way, if someone comes at me angry, I couldn't care less about their point unless they calm down and formulate it in a civilized manner. In general, I just leave them behind fuming in their own mad rage.

  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    Yeah but bigger developers have somewhat of a buffer.
    They still receive their round of death threats and hate because of X or Y. Not only that, it's cool to hate AAA games these days. It's even personally targeted and directed these days at particular people. Nobody is safe.

    Quote Originally Posted by seshFriend View Post
    I have never played any games by Puppy Games, I looked at the titles on this website and they all seem pretty standard derivative indie game style titles. [...] More than there has ever been before.
    I think this is the real uncomfortable truth that needs to be stated. Most games that don't do very well aren't sleeper or cult hits just waiting for the public to wise up. Most of them don't sell well because they're nothing special or are lost in a crowd of similar titles. There are so many games and so many sales that I don't have enough time to play everything - so a game that looks kinda good but isn't anything special isn't going to catch my interest, particularly if it's a casual-type game. Many indie studios go under because they're not making anything particularly good, and with the massively increased competition, 'fairly good' isn't good enough. They all rushed to the indie sector looking to make comparatively simple games hoping for the next indie hit, but there can be only one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    See, it does honestly puzzle me when people totally dismiss creative types based on how they comport themselves
    I don't buy Fez because I don't want to support Fish and his ridiculously bloated ego, just the same that some people don't want to buy Call of Duty because it's the 'cancer killing gaming' or whatever. Just the same way that people call for fucking boycotts all the time. Does it make any difference? Nope. Does it make me feel better? Yep, and that's what matters to me. I'm not a charity.

    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    On the flipside tho, developers have this idea that they are 'entitled' to a return on their efforts/respect for what they do which just isn't true either.
    Exactly right, being an indie dev does not entitle you to immunity from criticism, nor does it mean your customers have to worship you. Shipping a game does not mean we have to faun all over you for your efforts if your game isn't particularly interesting or good. The cult-like status of indie games is about to come crashing down now that there's a flood of them on the market - and we're going to start becoming a lot less tolerant of 'passable' games.
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  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinraith View Post
    Yup. Nobody wants to hear it, but we're headed in some worrying directions and I'm really not sure there's anything the individual consumer can really do about it anymore. Vogel's piece from awhile back really summed up the problem beautifully.

    http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.co.uk/201...s-popping.html
    While ago I thought you were mad, now I'm trending towards unease at the saleability of your suggestions. This isn't quite faith in your suggestions however.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    A great deal of truth in that, I admit. I'm quite looking forward to the day a triple-A studio first commits properly to F2P, and/or Steam completes its transition into the App Store/Google Play/thousands upon thousands of separate walled gardens, and people wander the internet shellshocked, asking each other "But but but what happened?" His tone makes me uncomfortable - I don't have a problem with developers getting confrontational, I think acting "professional" is wildly, wildly over-rated, but I still think Phil Fish behaved like a dick, much as I love Fez and would happily buy anything else he made if he came back to the industry. It's not something to condemn, but it's not something to praise either. Still, yeah, many, many perfectly valid points.

    At the same time I've never played or had any interest in anything Puppygames have ever done, at full price or otherwise, and... I hate to fall into his trap, but this really won't change that one way or the other. <_<
    With you on all points. I completely get what Puppygames is saying ... but I'm not confident their heart is quite in the right place though I'm hardly surprised a struggling developer would have it's heart a bit off-center--it has bigger concerns like survival.
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  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I think this is the real uncomfortable truth that needs to be stated. Most games that don't do very well aren't sleeper or cult hits just waiting for the public to wise up. Most of them don't sell well because they're nothing special or are lost in a crowd of similar titles. There are so many games and so many sales that I don't have enough time to play everything - so a game that looks kinda good but isn't anything special isn't going to catch my interest, particularly if it's a casual-type game. Many indie studios go under because they're not making anything particularly good, and with the massively increased competition, 'fairly good' isn't good enough. They all rushed to the indie sector looking to make comparatively simple games hoping for the next indie hit, but there can be only one.
    I don't think there's just one uncomfortable truth. I think this one you mention is the main reason Puppygames is speaking out--they're crumbling and struggling and they're rationalizing and frustrated.

    But they're also right. Journalists, customers, and developers have been talking about the same issues since the dawn of digital distribution. That some of the people talking about it can't blame these issues alone for their failures doesn't change what validity exists in their discussion.
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