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Thread: Puppygames rant

  1. #81
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
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    Scaling difficulty is such a good idea in theory. It has never been well implemented. I guess it depends on so many variables it makes it very hard for the game to understand player progress.

  2. #82
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    Regarding puppygames: shame they're not doing well, I have quite a few of their games and enjoyed the ones I've played. Still doesn't excuse the rant, though.

    Regarding the gaming scene: I've been thinking about this. And I think there are two things we're seeing:
    1) A lot of games
    2) Really cheap games

    And they're probably connected. If devs opt to raise their prices, not go for bundles (as quickly or at all), etc. then they may get more money per copy but will it make up for the quantity? Especially if others keep going with the current trend.

    On the other side, if they don't and the money isn't sufficient to keep going.. then what?

    Either way, if the current trend is untenable, we'll undoubtably see devs closing down, less games being released and less newcomers to the scene. This may very well be good if the current trend is in fact untenable for most developers. And if this results in a move away from that.

  3. #83
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tikey View Post
    Scaling difficulty is such a good idea in theory. It has never been well implemented. I guess it depends on so many variables it makes it very hard for the game to understand player progress.
    I'm guessing you don't play many shmups.
    Quote Originally Posted by RacketBoy
    Rank: A sometimes-controversial feature, “rank” is a catch-all term encompassing various auto-adjusting difficulty systems operating “in the background” of many shmups. Basically, a shooter with “rank” gradually gets a bit harder or easier overall depending on how you perform in-game: for example, enemies might become more aggressive as your weapons grow more powerful, but lighten up on you a bit if you lose a life. Usually the idea is to constantly rebalance the game’s challenge level to keep the curve relatively steady throughout, to the point where the player hardly notices: some games, though, have taken the concept to an extreme, all but forcing shmuppers to carefully construct strategies with the specific purpose of “rank control” (basically, keeping the game from getting “too angry” at you) in mind. Hard info on particular rank systems can be tricky to dig up, but there’s usually a hint or two floating around to reward persistent observers

  4. #84
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    IMO a really good game. But hit the same problem all "dynamic difficulty" strategy games hit
    I am so scathing because like Gish before it, it was dripping with potential. And it was minimalist and cunning, but it also ruined itself by being more demanding than it let on in spikes.

    The carry over economy was probably a bad idea.

    Edit: Nope, just ragequituninstalled again, not because of a difficulty wall, but because playing dodge ball with a self inflicted difficulty gradient is frustrating.

    Edit 2: Homeworld 2's scaling was hilariously bad, but once you were good enough at the game it became akin to surfing. You needed to be perfectly on your game and not overbuild units.. Except when OH HELL THEY ARE COMING. Honestly, a full troop of torpedo frigates kiting big opponents with a light fighter escort could play most of the game for you, but again, we are taking about multiplayer level play for a single player campaign.
    Last edited by Heliocentric; 20-08-2014 at 11:58 PM.
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  5. #85
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    You are an enemy of gaming.
    I try my best.

    Quote Originally Posted by baboonanza View Post
    If you want particular types of games to continue to be made then you should support that by buying them at above rock-bottom prices. Why would I suggest that you buy games that you don't enjoy?
    It seemed like you were suggesting I should throw lots of money at games that might not actually deserve it. Something like Xenonauts deserves more than rock-bottom pricing for the amount of effort that went in and the depth that it has, but I'm not going to pay more than a few dollars for Tower Defence Game #1593530521, or Shallow TBS Game.

    Quote Originally Posted by baboonanza View Post
    And as to AAA games: The production values may be higher and the experience polished but new ideas and suprises are thin on the ground. [...] But each to their own eh.
    That's fine, but AAA games and their studios do well and stay around because their games sell well. They're less inclined to take massive risks because when they fail, they fail hard, and we're much less forgiving of them for it. Coincidentally, the indie sector is following the AAA sector by releasing clones of popular games. Minecraft came out and we've got a flood of other, similar games. Same with goddamn shadow-puppet platformers trying to capitalise on Limbo's success, or a hundred tower defence games and stuff like that. The indie sector is no longer the paragon of innovation it once was - the vast majority of them aren't doing anything special at all. For every Papers, Please there's a hundred action platformers.
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  6. #86
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    Puppy games have always been abrasive. Yes, customers are dicks on the internet. That doesn't mean you should be a dick back to them.

    That said, I kind of wonder if puppy games took a reputation hit from Humble Bundle. It made their names, and everyone and their mother has played Revenge of the Titans. However, Revenge of the Titans isn't fun for very long, and by the nature of the sale it was compared to Braid, Machinarium, Osmos, and to a much lesser extent Cortex Command. I imagine that turned many people off Puppy games for good.

    As for me, I see no need to lift a finger to save a aggressive developer who's game I didn't even like. Even their call for help was a fuck you. Compare them to Introversion, and a small, very vindictive part of me wants them to go out of business.

  7. #87
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    Revenge of the Titans isn't fun for very long, and by the nature of the sale it was compared to Braid, Machinarium, Osmos,
    Oh, wow! Osmos, there is a game that can go and die in a fire,
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  8. #88
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabrage View Post
    I'm guessing you don't play many shmups.
    Very few to be honest. Thanks for the tidbit.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    Compare them to Introversion, and a small, very vindictive part of me wants them to go out of business.
    Sadly (for puppygames) I do compare them to the rest of the industry. There are those who hit bad times and talk about it to the fans, and the fans rally around (successfully or not). And those who do the opposite, and we never hear of them again (unless they pop their heads back up to open their twitter and spout more abuse).
    It is a technical difference, but's there none the less.

  10. #90
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    The conundrum of the modern gaming scene is that fans demand that the developers connect with them and don't be faceless corporate drones and instead have personality but get angry if the developers happen to have an annoying personality.

    I don't think I care about what a developer thinks or does if it doesn't influence gaming.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  11. #91
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    But personality or reputation of a creator DOES impact on people's purchasing decisions. Who here would honestly consider purchasing a Gary Glitter CD or a DVD of Jim'll Fix It? Let's face it, if a person is creepy/dodgy/unpleasant/assholish enough it will stop us buying their stuff. [yes I recognise that in the above examples the fact that the items concerned are shit is also a factor but hopefully you get my point]

  12. #92
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    The conundrum of the modern gaming scene is that fans demand that the developers connect with them and don't be faceless corporate drones and instead have personality but get angry if the developers happen to have an annoying personality.
    There's a simple solution to that: don't be a dick to people.
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  13. #93
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    don't be a dick to people.
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  14. #94
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    I don't think the oversupply will 'end' because games already in existence will remain (mostly) in existence.

    I think we've already past the peak of 'people getting into game development' too.

    Bundles too are dying as an idea - they're turning into a way of pushing unknown titles or tired bargain-bin stuff for the most part - sales are dropping (esp as they take measures against key resale which was a BIG part of their original sales).

    It will take a year-or-more for the glut to even slow-down tho - such as the time it takes to make a game. PC Gamers will have to have learned how to pick-and-choose more carefully by then but I think the days that you could design a cool looking indie game, release it and rely on anyone buying it in any number are dead - you need to accept that and exploit the myriad other ways of bringing-in eyeballs and money!

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    The conundrum of the modern gaming scene is that fans demand that the developers connect with them and don't be faceless corporate drones and instead have personality but get angry if the developers happen to have an annoying personality.

    I don't think I care about what a developer thinks or does if it doesn't influence gaming.
    Communication does not need personality. Personality is no excuse for abusive behaviour. Strange argument.

    I never got the "their annoying" arguments. If the particular person is annoying, no need to berate them for it. If a developer is annoying, that's a totally different argument to the one going on with Puppygames developers right now. No one said their annoying when they swear at their own customers...
    It is a technical difference, but's there none the less.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    There's a simple solution to that: don't be a dick to people.
    Loads of people tell me that Noel Edmonds (a UK TV presenter) is a nasty, surly man in real life. People love to highlight that his happy-go-lucky and friendly persona on-screen is just that, a persona. Who'd thunk it eh!? :)

    Some developers (such as I) have to work with 'people' as part of our work so we learn how to interact in a way which will get you to tell us what, exactly, isn't working "on your computer" to the level we can fix it - but we're not TV presenters and we're not there to entertain you - or for you to use as a punchbag either.

    End of the day - a smart developer will engage to the level of

    a - providing updates and information about what's going on (but not get drawn into arguments about it - you're being TOLD not asked)
    b - solving technical issues where there's enough information to do that in the appropriate format

    If you're rude, expect us to take your every idea as gospel or simply give us nothing to work with/in the wrong format, we'll ignore you entirely. Given a choice of emailling, Tweeting, Facebooking, IRCing etc - the person who bitches about everything and/or leaves a review which says "Shit game does not work" should be prevented from breeding - please - thanks.

  17. #97
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus groovychainsaw's Avatar
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    As an aside (but relevent, I hope?), the sheer number of tower defence/ 2d point and click games/puzzle platformers coming from indie teams has leads to this very issue. They've all seemingly dived into the niches abopandoned by 'AAA'. You better be sure you're doing something fantastically original now to get noticed, otherwise you're just another indie platformer which is it's own redundant genre by itself now (I have so many games in a category of 'indie platformer' in steam. Most of them are unplayed. I can't tell which ones are good unless RPS tells me. I don't even have time to open them for 5 minutes to find out if one is good :-S).

    When 'indie' came onto the scene, it was filling niches that had gone unfulfilled for years by AAA (sounds a bit rude). Wow! A new platformer. Wow a 2d adventure game!. Then bundles came along and it was 'Wow! 5 platformers!' - of which we play 2. Now those buyndles are full of... junk? I've barely glanced at last few, but some of the game in them were like alpha 0.1 versions of things that were made in MS paint. I think we've reached bundle saturation there, and we're starting to see some bundlers go under accordingly (and rightly so).

    I think it's hitting the same issues AAA publishers hit with these smaller niches. If the market is crowded in a particular genre, you have to be the best, innovating and being creative, or you need to get out of that niche (this is why there no/few indie FPS successes). With AA a long while ago the niches got smaller and it wasn't profitable to even put a small team on something like a platformer. Of course, after 10 years of AAA abandonment (on the PC), the niches were empty again and 'Indie' arrived to fill those demands. The first few devs got the benefit of this, but now we're seeing the decline publishers did. It will weed out the 'clones' and 'poorer' ideas and hopefully leave us with the truly innovative stuff and visionary indies. That's my hope anyway, and the best indie games have met that innovative and creative desire, and usually have been rewarded.

    We could of course just be stumbling into candy crush saga land(TM) as the interesting stuff turns out not to be the popular stuff. But i don't think so. The difference between the app store and steam is still bigger than has been suggested. You have to have an interest in games to get steam, whereas the app store forces you to look at games just to use your phone. Steam is already selecting for people who are (slightly) more discerning. If it was built into windows and popped up a steam sale ad when you logged in, then I think it would truly be a race to the lowest common denominator.
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  18. #98
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    IDGI 10char
    Neither does Phil Fish. You don't want to be Mr Fish, do you?


    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    Loads of people tell me that Noel Edmonds (a UK TV presenter) is a nasty, surly man in real life. People love to highlight that his happy-go-lucky and friendly persona on-screen is just that, a persona. Who'd thunk it eh!? :)
    That's fine - so long as he maintains that persona when interacting with the public. To be honest, most of my patients are demanding arseholes who don't know how to say "please" and "thank you" but I don't lash out at them. It's not appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    If you're rude, expect us to take your every idea as gospel or simply give us nothing to work with/in the wrong format, we'll ignore you entirely. Given a choice of emailling, Tweeting, Facebooking, IRCing etc - the person who bitches about everything and/or leaves a review which says "Shit game does not work" should be prevented from breeding - please - thanks.
    People are pricks, particularly when they want something and feel entitled to it, and if they've paid for something, they feel entitled to it. It doesn't matter what sector you work in, whether it's IT support, healthcare, or puppy petting, you're going to have people bitching at you. It's fine, and acceptable to tell them that their behaviour is inappropriate. It's not acceptable to swear at them and blame them for all your problems... particularly if you happen to be an indie dev lost in a crowd of others producing nothing of exceptional quality.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  19. #99
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    Oh yes, of course, don't justify their anger with more anger - won't work.

    A bit of mild sarcasm (and I mean mild - more wit than barb) doesn't go amiss sometimes - as does "just being nice" (it's hard to be nasty to someone who's polite in return) but otherwise the best answer to someone who's rude is to ignore them completely (probably annoys them more than telling them to fuck off anyway).

    I get these people on my (entirely free and/or ad-supported - e.g. no cost upfront) apps - not only do they want to call my work but they want to tell other people NOT TO PLAY IT. It narks me but I'm sure a psychologist would explain that no matter how strongly people feel about something, the one thing they crave is other people agreeing with them or at least being beholden to them for sharing their amazing insights in the world.

    If only we could get this pricks to spread useful knowledge eh? :)

  20. #100
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Oh for sure, a bit of sarcasm is fine by me, but Puppygames seem to be hellbent on blaming everybody else for their problems. Princec's posts on the RPS article about Puppygames pushes me into thinking that the problem is equal parts gaming in general and Puppygames themselves. I mean if you're looking for people to pay more for your game, telling them their support is fucking worthless isn't exactly encouraging people to help.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

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