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  1. #201
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Because the community is insulting and verbally abusing them. Sorry, but I fucking hate this. This, "We can say whatever we want but you can't be rude back because you're professionals". Or "You're journalists so need to follow this code of ethics, but if we write something, make a YouTube video or make a gif and scrawl red lines over it, we're just civilians and can do whatever we want."

    Maybe stop yelling at 'professionals' about how they should behave and start role-modelling how you want them to behave. Or just take your money and your custom elsewhere if you're that bothered.
    I think the problem at large is that the journalists or professionals are responding to all criticism as one unit, regardless of who said it. They're falling to the level of the idiots. The idiots are those guys calling them whores, gays, fags and harassing them. Those idiots are the rioters to the peaceful protesters and are giving the protester a bad name. Journalists seem to only be responding to the extremely harsh negativity coming to them and ignoring the guy who just wants to talk about the issues.

    I'm getting lumped in with the spastiks who think it's ok to harass people online and that sucks. I just want to discuss the issue as I see, which is not sleeping with five guys, but transparency in this new age of both sides of the industry, the devs/pubs and the media/press being tightly knit together in a way not seen before.

    Don't get me wrong, and hopefully people stop putting me in with this idiots. I don't agree with their methods and I don't think the majority of them actually even care about any issue, they're just doing it because they're horrible people. Their actions damage my argument for the issue because any time I mention it someone says "Buy look at the harassment!!". And again, I agree, the harassment is uncalled for completely and entirely. But the harassment is being used to sweep next to any logical, peaceful and thoughtful discussion of this away.
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  2. #202
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    I don't think anyone would actually lump you in with them Jesus Phish.

    Though I have seen the opposite being true, so it cuts both ways, apparently everyone is guilty of a trial by media on previous issues; or just the sheer number of people throwing around White Knight as a way of silencing any intelligent debate. John Walker is perfectly correct in calling those people fucking idiots, and I think he's been pretty clear on some of the articles about the exact kind of idiot he is talking to.

  3. #203
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strange headache View Post
    Exactly this. Dismissing valid criticism because some people are clearly stepping over the line is just wrong. I don't identify with these people, I don't agree with the way they argue and I strongly oppose their behavior. Sending death threats, humiliating and insulting other people over the internet is not alright. It's sad enough that this has to be said, but it's not the point of the discussion.
    This is where I always had a problem with. This particular discussion originated from an angry post by an angry ex that was picked up on by the angry internet mob. "People make tweets about how you should die... Post nudes from Zoe on your feed ... Demand that you post evidence of aforementoined on the forums violating any sort of common decency or forum rules ... But they do have a valid point!"

    I know that atleast some of you are genuinely concerned about possible conflicts of interest, but I honestly can't tell the difference between people who are genuinely concerned and people who disguise themselves as genuinely concerned and instead post a whole list of links in an underhanded attempt to destroy Zoey Quinn for making a free public awereness thing. The latter seem to be in the majority.

    The argument already was tainted from the start. It was specifically made with the intent to be tainted.

    Don't get me wrong, and hopefully people stop putting me in with this idiots. I don't agree with their methods and I don't think the majority of them actually even care about any issue, they're just doing it because they're horrible people. [...] But the harassment is being used to sweep next to any logical, peaceful and thoughtful discussion of this away.
    This issue wouldn't even have been discussed if it was not for the harrasment though - Discussing it may justify the harrassment to the harrassers. It may even mean a victory to the harrassers.
    I can't blame the "Games press" for not wishing these people any sort of grant or leeway.
    Last edited by Grizzly; 27-08-2014 at 12:27 PM.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    Don't confuse more accepted with 'fine.'
    Oh sure. But it's like seeing a guy killing someone and then dropping litter on the floor, then having a go at him for being a filthy litterer.

    Part of the argument is "we're not saying games journalists are corrupt, it's just if they hang out with indie developers, it can look like they're corrupt, give off that appearance, and that's a problem."

    But how come that looks suspicious, but a full site takeover advert next to a positive review doesn't 'appear' corrupt any more? Because we accepted it as part and parcel of the industry, took it on faith that our writers weren't taking backhanders, and got on with our lives.

  5. #205
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    This issue wouldn't even have been discussed if it was not for the harrasment though - Discussing it may justify the harrassment to the harrassers. It may even mean a victory to the harrassers.
    I can't blame the "Games press" for not wishing these people any sort of grant or leeway.
    I think if the stories told from the jilted lover had of been investigated or expanded on by the press, such as the accusation she destroyed another game jam in order to fuel promotion for her own, which is actually a much more interesting and legitimate story than her sex life then this wouldn't be such a hot topic and that story probably still would have exposed the other stuff that has come up about the clique-like nature between some of todays devs and journalists. She would still have been harassed because the internet is full of dicks. That is a terrible side effect of the internet. But if it broke that way, instead of this way, I think we would've gotten a lot more rational discussion with some noise coming from the depths of the internet, but not nearly as much. That's how I see it anyway. There's no way we'll ever know of course.

    Another point on it is also, sometimes ugly things have to happen for stories to get out and for debates to start for change to occur. I'm not excusing the hordes of people who've abused her or anyone else over this. In an ideal world it would've gone down another way, but the world isn't ideal.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Journalists seem to only be responding to the extremely harsh negativity coming to them and ignoring the guy who just wants to talk about the issues.
    But is it really so important to you that you need to talk about with them right now? Is it going to cause huge issues in your life if you wait a month for the nutters to go away and come back to it then, when it's all calmed down, and a site like RPS might actually be able to post something about it without needing someone then moderating the comments full time for the next week? It's not a protest march against the war where we need to do something immediately, so we'll have to deal with the rioters. It's just games. It's a hobby for most of us. We have the luxury of waiting out the shitstorm then having a sensible conversation.

    I can't understand why anyone who genuinely just wants to 'discuss the issues' wants to do it under this climate, one of anger, hostility, frustration. It'll keep, y'know? I'm fairly sure next week isn't the first annual indie dev/journo swingers party.

  7. #207
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    But how come that looks suspicious, but a full site takeover advert next to a positive review doesn't 'appear' corrupt any more?
    I'm pretty hopeful many would think it does, it’s just news as old as the industry itself. Games journalists and Indi developers forming these tight-knit social circles, hanging out together, openly considering each other good friends and supporting one another is something new to talk about.

    Besides, there's only so many times you can beat on IGN before it becomes sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    I can't understand why anyone who genuinely just wants to 'discuss the issues' wants to do it under this climate, one of anger, hostility, frustration. It'll keep, y'know? I'm fairly sure next week isn't the first annual indie dev/journo swingers party.
    On the one hand there's that, and on the other we're in an online gaming media blackout that as far as I can tell may well be unprecedented. It's really difficult not to talk about that.
    Last edited by Drake Sigar; 27-08-2014 at 12:47 PM.

  8. #208
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    I think if the stories told from the jilted lover had of been investigated or expanded on by the press, such as the accusation she destroyed another game jam in order to fuel promotion for her own,
    Because the first one isn't a story and would actually violate all these professional ethics people are supposedly on about. The second one is possibly a story but not right now in the middle of a virtual riot.

  9. #209
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    But how come that looks suspicious, but a full site takeover advert next to a positive review doesn't 'appear' corrupt any more? Because we accepted it as part and parcel of the industry, took it on faith that our writers weren't taking backhanders, and got on with our lives.
    Again, see how Jeff Gerstman was fired from Gamespot because of his review for Kane and Lynch 2, strong arming by the publisher, and people who care about money over professionalism got scared. It cost the guy his job and threw the reputation of Gamespot into the trash.

    The reason it's "accepted" (I'd argue it's not actually fully accepted by everyone) now is because we've already been through the issue of publishers paying for full site takeover adverts next to a positive review. We also see plenty of full scale adverts next to negative reviews, which is great. That already happened many years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    But is it really so important to you that you need to talk about with them right now? Is it going to cause huge issues in your life if you wait a month for the nutters to go away and come back to it then, when it's all calmed down, and a site like RPS might actually be able to post something about it without needing someone then moderating the comments full time for the next week? It's not a protest march against the war where we need to do something immediately, so we'll have to deal with the rioters. It's just games. It's a hobby for most of us. We have the luxury of waiting out the shitstorm then having a sensible conversation.

    I can't understand why anyone who genuinely just wants to 'discuss the issues' wants to do it under this climate, one of anger, hostility, frustration. It'll keep, y'know? I'm fairly sure next week isn't the first annual indie dev/journo swingers party.
    Because right now, there is no "we'll discuss the matter later" coming from most people. It's "this is bullshit, you're all harassing us and this is the last time I'll speak on the subject". The one exception I've seen from this is Jim Sterling, who like me thinks there are actually issues that have come to light because of this worth exploring and has said he'll cover them in the future.

    Also, I'm free to discuss a topic as and when I see fit. I'm not going to mark it down in my calender for a month from today to "discuss issue". If you don't want to engage in it, don't. There are other's of us who are happy to talk about it now and are trying to do so away from the bad eggs. I use forums with very small user bases and very well mannered user bases for the most part for a reason. One of the best things about this internet is we can discuss these things as they're happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    Because the first one isn't a story and would actually violate all these professional ethics people are supposedly on about. The second one is possibly a story but not right now in the middle of a virtual riot.
    Yeah, I'm aware of that. But why did this riot start?

    Because nobody would talk about it (but have talked about similar issues openly before) and people were actively silenced from talking about it (but not those similar issues).

    It's the Streisand effect blown up, with added venom because people feel like they're being silenced and taking issue with those ideas. I don't agree with how they're going about reacting to it though.

    Again, I think if they (media) took the interesting part out of that jilted lover story and ran on that, we wouldn't be in the middle of a virtual riot. But we'll never know.
    Last edited by Jesus_Phish; 27-08-2014 at 12:50 PM.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Again, see how Jeff Gerstman was fired from Gamespot because of his review for Kane and Lynch 2, strong arming by the publisher, and people who care about money over professionalism got scared. It cost the guy his job and threw the reputation of Gamespot into the trash.
    Its that confirmed?

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Also, I'm free to discuss a topic as and when I see fit.
    Yes you are. Shame you're not willing to extend that freedom to other people isn't it? Another case of one rule for you and one for the people you're angry with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    On the one hand there's that, and on the other we're in an online gaming media blackout that as far as I can tell may well be unprecedented. It's really difficult not to talk about that.
    A media blackout? Really? There are tons of YouTube videos and gifs with red pen scribbled over them out there. Is that not media?

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    I like to imagine he's still out there in the wild untamed Internet. Still typing up an ultimate wall-o-text which when submitted will bring about the rapture.
    I too miss Wulf, Wizardry and Nalano. But I suppose theres limits on the variability inside a group of people. Big forums achieve their size by having lots of subforums, and every subforum (and sometimes every thread) its a insular group of people with their own culture.

  13. #213
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    A media blackout? Really? There are tons of YouTube videos and gifs with red pen scribbled over them out there. Is that not media?
    Sure, if you’re going to be facetious and go for the absolute most literal definition of the word while knowing I clearly meant the gaming press. Unless you're saying there's basically no difference.

  14. #214
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    I don't really see how this "situation" can really tell anything valuable or even interesting about game journalism, whatever starting point was it ended as personal break-up dirty laundry washing and on-line harassement and frankly this is ugly. Personally I really belive that gaimng journalism is pretty corrupt one way of another, and we are not talking about suitcases of cash or something like that but rather game journalists being played by clever PR departemnts of big studios, (something that Mr. Florence wanted to write about in this "famous" Eurogamer article but failed miserably) or clever people of the Indie scene and not small fact for this is that audience actually wanted them to be corrputed as a knights in ongoing fanboy wars. Think is I can't really see anything in this very thread that sooner or later (rather sooner ) that some people find thsi as an oportunity to have a go at certain people, seeing some kind of opening or a little stumble in their stance and for me that is writing this arguments in bad faith. I can certainly relate to this situation when certain people who jump at moral high horse every now and then now they turn up with not that excellent or gray-area behaviours, as a rally call for "get off your high horse and have a have a couple of good punches here close to the ground", I can relate but I know that ultimately this is wrong and that's not how we as a humans should act. So i happy that RPS actually stay silent on this. That probably should be discussion about double standards, enethical practices and certain ignorance of gaming journalists but not now and not under these cricumstances.

  15. #215
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    It's the desperate censorship that's interesting. No censorship and this would have been long dead.
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  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    Sure, if you’re going to be facetious and go for the absolute most literal definition of the word while knowing I clearly meant the gaming press. Unless you're saying there's basically no difference.
    But this is about the gaming press! There's one type of press that absolutely isn't suited for reporting on this matter. Can you guess which? It starts with 'G' and ends with 'aming press'.

    We're at the point where this has the makings of a full on comedy sketch.

    It's a conflict of interest for the gaming press to cover the games of people they know, apparently. But it wouldn't be a conflict of interest for the gaming press to report on allegations over their own corruption?

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    It's the desperate censorship that's interesting. No censorship and this would have been long dead.
    And yet, we're talking. And there are threads on the Escapist, Kotaku and elsewhere. Some stuff was shut down originally because it wasn't discussing the 'wider issues' but was focusing on someone's personal life, which we all finally seem agreed has no place. Now the discussion has actually moved on, there's been little to no censorship.

  18. #218
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    It's the desperate censorship that's interesting. No censorship and this would have been long dead.
    What Censorship? RPS not writing an article isn't censorship. The original Redis threads as far as I understand it went way over into libel and breach of privacy laws.

    This thread seems to indicate we're not being censored.

  19. #219
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    I think the problem at large is that the journalists or professionals are responding to all criticism as one unit, regardless of who said it.
    Of course they are, because blanket statements don't require any real thought.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    John Walker is perfectly correct in calling those people fucking idiots, and I think he's been pretty clear on some of the articles about the exact kind of idiot he is talking to.
    The problem with Walker's articles are explicitly polarising to the point of creating an 'us vs them' attitude, because it suits his agenda. Remember when he posted about this on RPS when discussing misogyny, sexism, and women in gaming (which is a ridiculously broad topic on RPS)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walker
    (In reply to "People are exaggerating on both sides") This, and many variants on it, are all about pretending to want to bring “balance” to the argument, in order to prevent its taking place at all.
    That quote alone tells me all I need to know - namely, any attempts at analysis other than those that share the RPS perspective are not welcome. They're 'derailing' the argument. They aren't interested in anybody pointing out problems with their side. Lines like that is what generates the 'with us or against us' attitude. It's fine for RPS to speak out against misogyny in gaming, because everybody knows it exists, but when you're basically telling people that anything other than support is implicitly working against them then you've crossed from calling out the problem people into silencing anybody who doesn't agree with you.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  20. #220
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    But this is about the gaming press! There's one type of press that absolutely isn't suited for reporting on this matter. Can you guess which? It starts with 'G' and ends with 'aming press'.

    We're at the point where this has the makings of a full on comedy sketch.

    It's a conflict of interest for the gaming press to cover the games of people they know, apparently. But it wouldn't be a conflict of interest for the gaming press to report on allegations over their own corruption?
    It sort of worked out for Eurogamer and Doritogate? Walker took a lot of crap from his journalist colleagues for supporting that one.

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