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  1. #341
    There can be a divide between developers and the press, you only have to look at film magazines. Interviews between directors and writers are professional; they aren't afraid to have a laugh, but it's a professional relationship (in contrast, Nathan's interview for RPS were tat). On the film side of things, journalism doesn't look as nearly as incestuous as the developer/press relationship going on in gaming journalism.
    Last edited by Abacus Finch; 29-08-2014 at 07:04 PM.

  2. #342
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Fewer than ten accusations. That's not stuff that is fishy, just stuff that looks fishy and hasn't been investigated yet. I'd be interested if anyone has a list actually. It might not be more than five.

    I'm not suggesting we let it slide either. I'm suggesting people look into it, determine if there was a breach, and hold the people who commissioned/employed them to account *for that instance*.

    I don't seen any epidemic though.
    I do find it frankly amusing that you doggedly refuse to get to grips with the concept of conflict of interest and how it works.

    A conflict of interest (COI) is a situation occurring when an individual or organization is involved in multiple interests, one of which could possibly corrupt the motivation.

    The presence of a conflict of interest is independent of the occurrence of impropriety. Therefore, a conflict of interest can be discovered and voluntarily defused before any corruption occurs. A widely used definition is: "A conflict of interest is a set of circumstances that creates a risk that professional judgement or actions regarding a primary interest will be unduly influenced by a secondary interest."[1] Primary interest refers to the principal goals of the profession or activity, such as the protection of clients, the health of patients, the integrity of research, and the duties of public office. Secondary interest includes not only financial gain but also such motives as the desire for professional advancement and the wish to do favours for family and friends, but conflict of interest rules usually focus on financial relationships because they are relatively more objective, fungible, and quantifiable. The secondary interests are not treated as wrong in themselves, but become objectionable when they are believed to have greater weight than the primary interests. The conflict in a conflict of interest exists whether or not a particular individual is actually influenced by the secondary interest. It exists if the circumstances are reasonably believed (on the basis of past experience and objective evidence) to create a risk that decisions may be unduly influenced by secondary interests.
    It's not about whether an incident has or hasn't occurred, it's about whether due to the nature of a relationship (business or otherwise) people might arrive at a conclusion (as many seemingly have) that impropriety may have occurred. Just as the finger was being pointed at game journalism a year ago over Doritosgate and the questioning of swag given to game journalists at AAA events, this time the finger is pointing at the perceived unhealthy relationship that exists between members of the gaming press and the indie development scene.

    For some who claims to have a journalism qualification you seem to possess scant understanding of what it a fairly well established business practice.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 29-08-2014 at 07:50 PM.
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  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abacus Finch View Post
    There can be a divide between developers and the press, you only have to look at film magazines. Interviews between directors and writers are professional; they aren't afraid to have a laugh, but it's a professional relationship (in contrast, Nathan's interview for RPS were tat). On the film side of things, journalism doesn't look as nearly as incestuous as the developer/press relationship going on in gaming journalism.
    That's not quite the same thing, though. Press interviews are different from investigative journalism. A comparable example would be if somone wrote a piece about Jodorowski's Dune (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodorowsky%27s_Dune) after interviewing various people who were on set.

  4. #344
    What does investigative journalism have to do with this? That can't possibly apply to Kotaku, or RPS. What does it have to do with gaming journalism?

  5. #345
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palindrome View Post
    No side could ever claim the moral high ground, at least legitimately.

    Total Biscuit has written a worthwhile article/blog/whatever on the polarisation on this issue and why the terms SWJ and MRA have no real meaning. Its a bit long though.

    http://blueplz.blogspot.ca/2014/08/t...o-players.html I don't know how to make nice looking links, sorry.
    Very much enjoyed that article. I think he outlines the situation quite accurately. TB is actually in a far better position than most to really call things into question given his subscriber base and it would be quite nice to see him maybe do a youtube episode follow up to this post.
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  6. #346
    For those heavily engaged parties in this drama—I won't call it a debate because that's not what it is—it might be helpful for some, namely certain self-important twitterers/bloggers/youtubers and the like, to take a step back and observe that this drama has always only existed in a very small and airtight bubble and is fuelled mostly by pure fiction and massive egos. That vast multitude of average and emotionally secure people of both genders who happen to have games as a hobby are blissfully unaware of it and, more importantly, will not be effected by it ever. Still, my condolences on the Death of the Gamer—couldn't happen to a nicer fellow.

  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy horse View Post
    For those heavily engaged parties in this drama—I won't call it a debate because that's not what it is—it might be helpful for some, namely certain self-important twitterers/bloggers/youtubers and the like, to take a step back and observe that this drama has always only existed in a very small and airtight bubble and is fuelled mostly by pure fiction and massive egos. That vast multitude of average and emotionally secure people of both genders who happen to have games as a hobby are blissfully unaware of it and, more importantly, will not be effected by it ever. Still, my condolences on the Death of the Gamer—couldn't happen to a nicer fellow.
    I don't completely disagree, but: it's not airtight, it does have some effect outside the bubble, and I imagine it's hard to let go of these things if you're getting death threats etc. as a result. But in general, sure, it's a bunch of very angry people only now realising that as far as the rest of the world is concerned they've voluntarily sealed themselves and their toys in a very small bubble, and they refuse to even acknowledge the idea they might have to come out sometime.

    Oh, and that's one more reason to avoid paying TotalBiscuit any attention, I guess.

  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    I don't completely disagree, but: it's not airtight, it does have some effect outside the bubble, and I imagine it's hard to let go of these things if you're getting death threats etc. as a result. But in general, sure, it's a bunch of very angry people only now realising that as far as the rest of the world is concerned they've voluntarily sealed themselves and their toys in a very small bubble, and they refuse to even acknowledge the idea they might have to come out sometime.

    Oh, and that's one more reason to avoid paying TotalBiscuit any attention, I guess.
    Pretty sure the outside world lumps all these attacks in with the same internet dregs.

    When it came to the Ferguson, Missouri stuff local news carried the doxxing of the police chief and DDOS on city web services (which did affect a lot of people just trying to live normal lives).

    Maybe referring to these people as gamers is dying because the wider world is beginning to see them as general internet hooligans and/or internet terrorists. Just as likely to go on a social crusade as they are to steal your identity and credit card.

    Whether or not that is fair, a wide brush is being applied to that level of ... nerd?

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    No it isn't.
    Wonderful to see we have Kadayi and Palindrome demonstrating exactly how right John Walker was.
    Jesus.fucking.christ.

    I really can't be arsed anymore.
    Last edited by palindrome; 30-08-2014 at 06:31 AM.

  10. #350
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isu View Post
    You know what gets me? How do you think investigative journalists, like Nathan in the case of the game jam piece, get their information? They talk to people. Build a rapport. Hang out with them. It's not remotely surprising to me that a journalist would stay in touch with people s/he met at work, and, so long as there was no romantic relationship at the time, there was no impropriety (and frankly, even if there was, it would be pretty small beer -- this is hardly a case of favourable reviews).

    A tragicomic aspect of this whole thing is that Nathan is one of the few 'games journalists' out there who has done a fair bit of actual journalism -- as opposed to the art-criticism-as-product reviews and press-release recycling that constitute most games press output. And, it's precisely this kind of investigative reporting that demolishes any pretense that there can be a sterile divide between developers and the press.
    Much agreed.


    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    You're not a 'listener' or an 'experimenter' though. It's a rubbish word, we've needed a new one for a while, let's abandon 'gamer' to the grognards.
    Sorry, but my identity is mine. I'm a gamer.

    Further, I do identify very strongly as someone who finds listening to music critically to be fulfilling and important. It's a big part of my life experience; the way I listen to music matters to me--not because I do it more or better than other people but ... well, it matters to me. It's one of the things I associate with my sense of self. The only reason I wouldn't call myself a "listener" is because unlike Gamer, that identity concept is not a widely accepted meaning of that word.

    You're making a weird hash out of the space between how identity operates and how individual words are and aren't used. Same with experimenter. I don't spend most of my time working with physics personally running experiments as an experimental technician ... so again, that word simply doesn't apply to the thing I actually identify with. Besides, experimenter is to Physicist as Player is to Gamer in my estimation. I don't think it's a proper analogy and even if it is I think what I have already said applies.

    You're sort of declaring war on clear language. What's the clearest way to explain that playing games is something you do often and identify with the doing of? It's fine if you don't like the culture that associates you with or have other reasons not to want to so identify. But pretending it doesn't work for other people as an identifier is just ... obtuse. It quite clearly does.

    You're starting with the idea that the label doesn't work or isn't sufficient. Fine. Then add don't subtract. We should always fight for a broader vocabulary not a smaller one. Leave Gamer alone and do your own thing as you see fit. :)
    Last edited by gwathdring; 30-08-2014 at 04:08 AM.
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  11. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    I don't completely disagree, but: it's not airtight, it does have some effect outside the bubble, and I imagine it's hard to let go of these things if you're getting death threats etc. as a result. But in general, sure, it's a bunch of very angry people only now realising that as far as the rest of the world is concerned they've voluntarily sealed themselves and their toys in a very small bubble, and they refuse to even acknowledge the idea they might have to come out sometime.
    Indeed. The reaction when Joss Whedon tweeted his support for Anita Sarkeesian was hilarious and scary. Same for Wil Wheaton.

  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Sorry, but my identity is mine. I'm a gamer.
    Ditto. I identify as a Ďgamerí for personal reasons and because of what the term used to be associated with. It was a link to my father, a new medium that was daring and imaginative, a haven for those who didnít quite belong anywhere else. Being a child and a big fan of PC gaming during a time when almost everybody thought you were sick just for having a computer in the house creates a pretty strong connection that is at the core of who I am. As far as Iím concerned, no one has the right to flippantly tread on my past and claim I'm doing it wrong.

  13. #353
    You're starting with the idea that the label doesn't work or isn't sufficient. Fine. Then add don't subtract. We should always fight for a broader vocabulary not a smaller one. Leave Gamer alone and do your own thing as you see fit. :)
    Thank you for saying this. Gamer are people that play games, nothing more and nothing less. It's quite simple. There are many different kinds of people that play games.

    Being a child and a big fan of PC gaming during a time when almost everybody thought you were sick just for having a computer in the house creates a pretty strong connection that is at the core of who I am. As far as Iím concerned, no one has the right to flippantly tread on my past and claim I'm doing it wrong.
    It's kind of funny that the term "gamer" used to be a pejorative description for freaks that wasted their time playing video-games. Nevertheless those who played games were proud to identify themselves as gamers because they could identify themselves with other people suffering from prejudice simply because they happened to be playing games too.

    When the video-games industry became a huge thing other people started pouring in and being a gamer became more socially accepted. It has been a long and tedious way but we stood by our hobby no matter the social stigmata that was associated with.

    It's kinda sad that people are now so quick to abandon that term only because some other people don't agree with their opinions. For a long time and to a certain extend even now, gamers suffered from the same prejudices that many other minorities suffered from. Clamoring for the "death of gamers" is a knee-jerk reaction that contributes nothing to the problems at hand.

    Good lord, are people still going on about this??? Why is this non topic still the main thread in THREE rps forums???

    Storm in a teacup. Whoever said it's a bubble of self important people online was pretty much spot on.
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  14. #354
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    As as someone who actually believes in social justice and generally approves of Anita and co, I found this to be the most spot-on take so far: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s6j3sh

    But in these past two weeks alone, we have been royally fucking up. You see, we have a problem in social justice, and these problems have been simmering under the surface for awhile now. We have an enormous, ongoing problem with abuse and harassment directed at others: both outside of the community, and among our own.


    Last week, Eron Gjoni posted a call out about his former girlfriend, Zoe Quinn, a video game developer and a former inspiration of mine. I read through his call out, and I've studied his receipts closely. I quickly found out that Zoe Quinn shows the classic signs of an emotional abuser: she constantly utilizes suicidal threats, gaslighting, lying, guilt tripping, isolation from others, redirecting her partner's concerns, and spiteful blame in order to control Eron. The list goes on and on, and the receipts are damning to any abuse survivor.


    Previously, there were concerns about Eron's call out: he appeared to be the only one calling Zoe Quinn out, and, despite there being enormous receipts, many people were skeptical of his claims. In fact, this led to many individuals spreading misinformation about Eron. This was further compounded by Zoe Quinn's post on "terrorism," which sidesteps the abuse allegations completely. This led to many activists smearing Eron's name, calling him "spiteful," "jilted," and other various baseless insults towards Quinn's ex-.


    However, Eron is no longer alone in his call out. Now, a total of five people and organizations have come out verifying pieces and angles of Eron's story. For their own privacy, I won't disclose their names; but if you've been following this story, their call out's on sexual harassment, lying, control, malicious intent, exploitation, and emotional manipulation only seem to further strengthen Eron's story.


    Now, why is this relevant? We've talked about Zoe Quinn to death, right? Well, no.


    Zoe Quinn framed her life and work around a dedication to social justice activism. At the very core of Quinn's career was a desire for inclusivity and visibility for marginalized identities. However, Quinn's personal life shatters her work completely. Her abusive behavior and malicious intent has hurt nearly half a dozen people, which makes her dangerous in the eyes of an abuse survivor.

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    @LDouglas: If true, that only signifies how awkward these discussions are if lies (or, at least, not the entire story) are told or certain aspects of an issue are emphasised for whatever reasons. We should be doing far more research or refrain from speaking for the moment (and I can understand the latter in cases where privacy and delicate subject matter is involved). Question is also, if you're not doing the research yourself, who do you trust to research the story objectively and respectfully? But more importantly is that those who intend to report on issues with integrity and as objectively as possible take that same care and caution and don't fear to place corrections and addendums as needed.

    Without that, we don't even know what we are talking about.
    Last edited by Hmm-Hmm.; 31-08-2014 at 01:45 AM.

  16. #356
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hmm-Hmm. View Post
    We should be doing far more research or refrain from speaking for the moment (and I can understand the latter in cases where privacy and delicate subject matter is involved).
    Unfortunately that isn't how things work around here. Why would people bother to conduct research when they can charge off on a moral crusade to desperately claim the social justice high-ground instead? If you actually do conduct your own inquiry and question what's going on, you're labelled as someone looking to disrupt things or 'stop change'. In cases like this, there is no room for rational discussion. The trolls will muddy the waters, the extremists on both sides will do their best to polarise the situation, and with that any rational discussion gets beaten into the ground.
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  17. #357
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Unfortunately that isn't how things work around here. Why would people bother to conduct research when they can charge off on a moral crusade to desperately claim the social justice high-ground instead? If you actually do conduct your own inquiry and question what's going on, you're labelled as someone looking to disrupt things or 'stop change'. In cases like this, there is no room for rational discussion. The trolls will muddy the waters, the extremists on both sides will do their best to polarise the situation, and with that any rational discussion gets beaten into the ground.
    I have seen more bemoaning extremism in this thread than middle-ground discussion, for what it's worth.
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  18. #358
    I'm not coming back after this.

    I was temporarily banned for posting evidence of gamers being outright shit talked by gaming journalists. (ie us being told we're worse than ISIS)

    This place is going to make itself into an echo chamber so that no one will be able to see any sort of truth and the people on the middle ground will be overwhelmed by the "evidence" (ie nothing) presented by the other side.

    If you want the truth, google Internet Aristocrat or go on /v/ and find a GamerGate thread.

    The truth is out there.

  19. #359
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    No, you werent banned for posting evidence. You were banned for posting links time and time again after ive said youre doing it too damn aggressively, on top of the silly ban on the zq stuff.

    And I did tell you to come back just stop with the goddamn omg truth crusade.
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  20. #360
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ldouglas View Post
    As as someone who actually believes in social justice and generally approves of Anita and co, I found this to be the most spot-on take so far: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s6j3sh
    The policing these people do is insane.

    I'm all for journalistic integrity because I think it's important, but I do so in the frame of being achievable and necessary to avoid further blow ups such at this within the gaming press. However the sort of regulation of behaviour and language that people like Phil demand beggars belief.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
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