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  1. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Right and then if someone asks what started all this what happens? We just go \_(ツ)_/?
    Thats why we said that forums are not a good place to have a serious discussion (note* but I don't know of a better place).

    You can't have a serious discussion when somebody is going to make a first post with "He guyz, have you seen this?" for the 884th time.
    Abandoned PC gaming for good. Now rest in a better place. psn:Teikman

  2. #462
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    There isn't really a better place. You're right, someone will come along for the 885th time and say "have you seen this!?". Unless there's a method in place that shows everyone all the information we've seen thus far and asks them questions on it before they post, we'll get that stuff.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  3. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadJax View Post
    I personally do not care for personal lives of anyone I have not met in real life, I'm here to read, discuss and talk about games. This may be a platform for some to further an agenda on both sides, yet it also disables a lot of us from having an intelligent discussion regarding ANY issue. What's next? John Walker (Whom I met very briefly during Rezzed and seemed perfectly lovely considering I was a stranger to him) declaring that "None but those with green skin and seven toes on each foot can post comments"?
    Thinking about it, I wonder if RPS will go the way of the Insert Credit and its original forums.

    Brandon Sheffield decided that he didn't like the way IC's forums spoke (such as feeling that they had created a toxic atmosphere towards game developers), and shut them down. The forums were briefly brought back under harsh new rules, and with a moderator that himself was one of the most controversial posters (but was apparently friendly enough with Brandon to get the forums a second lease on life.)

    One of the final rules was quite directly that forum posters were not allowed to disagree with Brandon, his friends, or any game developers. When asked for clarification, it was confirmed that forum posters were not allowed to disagree even if one of the chosen few was outright lying in posts. (The forums were shut down when a game developer posted incorrect information, and adamantly repeatedly defended that incorrect information against pretty much every forum poster, who were largely trying to correct his mistake and/or find the reason behind said mistake. It wasn't even a questionable situation, as the dev had been wrong about basic 3D graphics information.)

    Though I could see Insert Credit instead going the route of continuing to cut off article comments and simply further distancing itself from the forums, similar to the way that Gabe and Tycho quickly said that Penny Arcade's forums were an entirely separate beast that they didn't involve themselves with.
    Last edited by Baines; 03-09-2014 at 02:54 PM.

  4. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Right and then if someone asks what started all this what happens? We just go \_(ツ)_/?
    Then you can tell them. But it doesn't matter really does it?

    I'm just saying you will sound far, far more credible if you start with "I was wrong about Zoe Quinn but look at this..." rather than "Look at this, it's like the Zoe Quinn thing".

    Because if you tell me the new thing you've found is like the Zoe Quinn thing, my response is "What, another load of unsubstantiated bullshit?"

    Quote Originally Posted by strange headache View Post
    Anita Sarkeesian is an advisor for Silverstring Media. Lucas Johnson, the CEO of Silverstring Media, worked on Extrasolar and Crypt of the Necrodancer, both IGF finalists. Silverstrings PR Manager, Maya Kramer, has intimate relationships with IGF's chairman Brandon Boyer. IGF's parent company is GDC, who also own Gamasutra. Gamasutra's editor in chief is Leigh Alexander, the same person who started the whole "gamers are dead" discussion.
    Evidence for what, exactly? That's a bunch of connections between people in the industry. It's not hard, it's seven degrees of Kevin Bacon. Presumably there's an actual accusation in there and evidence to back it up? If Brandon Boyer votes on the IGF, and if Brandon Boyer voted for those games, and if the intimate relationship was happening at that time there's a big problem.

  5. #465
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Then you can tell them. But it doesn't matter really does it?

    I'm just saying you will sound far, far more credible if you start with "I was wrong about Zoe Quinn but look at this..." rather than "Look at this, it's like the Zoe Quinn thing".

    Because if you tell me the new thing you've found is like the Zoe Quinn thing, my response is "What, another load of unsubstantiated bullshit?"
    Yeah but here's the thing. These bloggers are doing journalistic like work by giving their sources and a brief history of what caused all this. There's nothing wrong with that. Neither of the two pages that you say mention her extensively actually go into much detail or analysis of it. They just acknowledge it was a thing. There's nothing wrong with doing that. It's good practice really.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  6. #466
    Lesser Hivemind Node strange headache's Avatar
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    Presumably there's an actual accusation in there and evidence to back it up? If Brandon Boyer votes on the IGF, and if Brandon Boyer voted for those games, and if the intimate relationship was happening at that time there's a big problem.
    Well, as pointed out in the other thread game journalists trying to defend IGF's practices were backed up on patreon by the same Silverstring PR person that was closely connected to IGF's chairman. RPS wrote about it, even indie developers taking part complained about it.

    At least I am trying to back up my claims and suspicions, unlike you, who is simply denying everything based on what? Nothing. You just say that it proves nothing, without providing evidence for either side of the argument.

  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    There's nothing wrong with doing that. It's good practice really.
    Actually, it's really bad journalistic practice to keep bringing up a name and case that has been debunked in articles making fresh allegations about other people. And potential a cause for civil action (the term to look up is "defamation by juxtaposition").

    Especially if it doesn't add anything to the story.

    Again though - there's nothing wrong with still talking about if you really want to, but then you don't also get to claim 'the conversation has moved on'.

    Quote Originally Posted by strange headache View Post
    Well, as pointed out in the other thread game journalists trying to defend IGF's practices were backed up on patreon by the same Silverstring PR person that was closely connected to IGF's chairman. RPS wrote about it, even indie developers taking part complained about it.

    At least I am trying to back up my claims and suspicions, unlike you, who is simply denying everything based on what? Nothing. You just say that it proves nothing, without providing evidence for either side of the argument.
    At this point, I don't even know what you're trying to prove? That people sleeping together often have similar opinions on things? Someone might defend their sexual partner on Twitter? I'm seeing all the connections, I'm not seeing all the wrong-doing.

  8. #468
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    Since we're doing links, this probably sums up my thoughts on the matter and puts into words what I've been struggling with: http://badassdigest.com/2014/08/31/w...ergate-gamers/

    And I agree with the initial conceit - ten years ago, I would have been one of the angry, 'corruption' screaming guys. But through a whole host of crap, rejection, loneliness, self-hatred and other such stuff, I learned how the world works. How friendship works. How society works. How journalism works.

    And maybe, technically, my standards for lots of things were higher back then. And maybe, from the perspective of moral absolutes, maybe I was more right back then. But god knows I am so much happier right now.

  9. #469
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Actually, it's really bad journalistic practice to keep bringing up a name and case that has been debunked in articles making fresh allegations about other people. And potential a cause for civil action (the term to look up is "defamation by juxtaposition").

    Especially if it doesn't add anything to the story.

    Again though - there's nothing wrong with still talking about if you really want to, but then you don't also get to claim 'the conversation has moved on'.
    I haven't seen it, but where has it been debunked?
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  10. #470
    Lesser Hivemind Node TillEulenspiegel's Avatar
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    Zoe Quinn is an awful person. There's ample proof of that, and everyone who's bothered to look at it agrees, right?

    I mean, you don't get to treat someone like shit and then cry "privacy!" when they go public with that. I get that people tend to defend their friends and perceived allies regardless of facts. But it's rather sad that the general reaction has been, at best, for people who know Zoe Quinn (including many many journalists) to avert their eyes and mumble "none of my business" and then go on to talk to her like nothing happened. That's shameful.

    The only thing "debunked" is some supposed quid pro quo, which I guess was the theory that 4chan ran with. Doesn't make close relationships between developers and journalists any less problematic. Humans are not objective robots capable of putting aside all biases, and whether it's sex or just a close friendship, these things influence us in many ways. It's rarely a direct exchange. Disclosure is important if journalism is to be taken seriously.
    Last edited by TillEulenspiegel; 03-09-2014 at 04:44 PM.

  11. #471
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    I'm intrigued by the number of people who hang out here who appear to have very little respect for the site and nothing but disdain and distrust for the writers.

  12. #472
    Lesser Hivemind Node strange headache's Avatar
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    Since we're doing links, this probably sums up my thoughts on the matter and puts into words what I've been struggling with: http://badassdigest.com/2014/08/31/w...ergate-gamers/
    It's funny that you are linking to an article written by Devin Faracy, the same guy who compared criticizers to ISIS and publicly stated on twitter: "I have more respect for ISIS, than the anti-Quinn people". The same guy that likes to "check out Scarjo's ass" and feeling the need to dedicate a whole article to it.

    At this point, I don't even know what you're trying to prove?
    Again, It's not my intention to discredit feminism. I want to single out the people that are actually hurting gender-equality through shady money making schemes and nepotism.

    But god knows I am so much happier right now.
    I know, ignorance is bliss.

  13. #473
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strange headache View Post
    I know, ignorance is bliss.
    There was a time I would have found that insulting targeted at me but I've aged and tempered. The world is full of horrible shit, if you try and think about anymore than a little bit of it a little of the time a part of you is chipped away until nothing is left but fear and hate.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  14. #474
    Lesser Hivemind Node strange headache's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    There was a time I would have found that insulting targeted at me but I've aged and tempered. The world is full of horrible shit, if you try and think about anymore than a little bit of it a little of the time a part of you is chipped away until nothing is left but fear and hate.
    That's part of the reason why I play video games :)

  15. #475
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillButNotBen View Post
    nothing but disdain and distrust for the writers.
    Only John Walker, only when he's talking politics. And it's not distrust, I trust him to peddle the same junk without fail.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  16. #476
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    Let me use this point in the conversation to update everyone on the rules:

    posting about ZQs personal life or details of that gaming industry meltdown is a no.

    posting about reactions to that, is a grey area (Im not going to delete it, but the ion cannon may stumble upon and delete)

    posting about wild rants about ZQs personal life is a definite no.

    posting about other game critic responses is fine.


    Im refraining from editing content as much as possible, but Im not the big boss here. I will delete personal attacks or just wild ranty attacks on people, just for more sidedness sake.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  17. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    I haven't seen it, but where has it been debunked?
    Well there was never any 'bunk' to start with. Zoe Quinn really has nothing to do with journalistic integrity, other than she slept with a journalist. A journalist that's been proven not to have written anything about her while they were sleeping together.

    Quote Originally Posted by TillEulenspiegel View Post
    Zoe Quinn is an awful person. There's ample proof of that, and everyone who's bothered to look at it agrees, right?
    She cheated on her boyfriend. That's pretty shitty. But also not my business. And it's always dangerous to judge people on their personal lives. In the past I've known women who have cheated on their boyfriend and people have judged them. Then it turns out the boyfriend was doing a hell of a lot worse to her. Again, not our business, and nothing to do with games.

    Quote Originally Posted by TillEulenspiegel View Post
    But it's rather sad that the general reaction has been, at best, for people who know Zoe Quinn (including many many journalists) to avert their eyes and mumble "none of my business" and then go on to talk to her like nothing happened. That's shameful.
    The only thing "debunked" is some supposed quid pro quo, which I guess was the theory that 4chan ran with. Doesn't make close relationships between developers and journalists any less problematic. Humans are not objective robots capable of putting aside all biases, and whether it's sex or just a close friendship, these things influence us in many ways. It's rarely a direct exchange. Disclosure is important if journalism is to be taken seriously.
    You think journalism will be taken more seriously if they write about a developer's sex life then? The 'supposed quid pro quo' is the only thing that matters to games journalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by strange headache View Post
    It's funny that you are linking to an article written by Devin Faracy, the same guy who compared criticizers to ISIS and publicly stated on twitter: "I have more respect for ISIS, than the anti-Quinn people". The same guy that likes to "check out Scarjo's ass" and feeling the need to dedicate a whole article to it.
    Y'know what - I have no idea who the guy who wrote that is, or what he said in the past. The opinion piece I linked reflects my thoughts now. I really don't care that he once looked at Scarlett Johanson's arse. For the same reason I don't give a shit who Zoe Quinn sleeps with. But y'know, it's easier to just attack the writer than the article isn't it?

  18. #478
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TillEulenspiegel View Post
    Zoe Quinn is an awful person. There's ample proof of that, and everyone who's bothered to look at it agrees, right?
    Nope. I have absolutely no opinion about her.

  19. #479
    Lesser Hivemind Node strange headache's Avatar
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    Y'know what - I have no idea who the guy who wrote that is, or what he said in the past. The opinion piece I linked reflects my thoughts now. I really don't care that he once looked at Scarlett Johanson's arse. For the same reason I don't give a shit who Zoe Quinn sleeps with. But y'know, it's easier to just attack the writer than the article isn't it?
    I just want to make sure that you know what and who your are linking to. You know, for the same reasons that you refuse to discuss anything related to a certain name.

    As for me, I don't want to have anything to do with people that compare other people to ISIS and are clearly behaving in a sexist manner. Such a person is certainly not believable in my book.

    For the same reason I don't give a shit who Zoe Quinn sleeps with
    On that, we both agree.

  20. #480
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Well there was never any 'bunk' to start with. Zoe Quinn really has nothing to do with journalistic integrity, other than she slept with a journalist. A journalist that's been proven not to have written anything about her while they were sleeping together.
    Nah, you're done now man. You're talking bs. First you're saying it's been debunked, which infers that there was something to debunk, now when asked to show where this has been debunked you''re saying there was nothing in the first place? Come off it.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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