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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    posting...details of that gaming industry meltdown is a no.

    posting about other game critic responses is fine.
    I'm new here so just to be clear I'm not trying to be combative or to get one over but there seems to be a lot of over lap between those two. Where's the line? Also would (for example) the fine Young Capitalists brew-ha-ha fall under ZQs personal details?

    Once again; not being cheeky, just looking for some clarity.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    It was the catalyst that brought all of this. It's hard to explain the history of what's going on without mentioning the original spark.
    Which of course should be enough to convince a rational observer that this 'scandal' isn't really being 'investigated' in good faith. "After some lady cheated on her boyfriend, I realized that the entire games media was a web of lies!"

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by pepperfez View Post
    Which of course should be enough to convince a rational observer that this 'scandal' isn't really being 'investigated' in good faith. "After some lady cheated on her boyfriend, I realized that the entire games media was a web of lies!"
    The assumption that because the instigating event is dubious all following events must of course be dubious as well, does not seem that rational.

  4. #484
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepperfez View Post
    Which of course should be enough to convince a rational observer that this 'scandal' isn't really being 'investigated' in good faith. "After some lady cheated on her boyfriend, I realized that the entire games media was a web of lies!"
    I'd say yes and no. There are certainly people going full scale "THEY'RE HIDING THE TRUTH" and then there's other people who just want to have a conversation. Also you're sensationalizing it with that statement.

    It's more like, "after some lady cheated on her boyfriend and he showed that there has been romantic links between journalists and developers and a whole bunch of other shady stuff regarding the possible sabotage of game jams, I realized the entire games media are possibly being a bit too close to their subject matter which might present an unwelcome amount of bias or removal of journalistic integrity."

    And now it's blown over into the IGF being questionable and we've got journalists and devs mocking gamers and saying gamers are dying and that gamers are horrible people.

    I don't think any rational person actually gives a fuck who Zoe Quinn got her rocks off with. Anyone who thinks that this is all over who she got her rocks off with is either deluded or not looking at the rest of the picture.

    The thing that surprises me most of all, is that only guys and gals on youtube and smaller blogs are following any of this and seem to be the only ones looking into the whole thing. Now, you're right, the claims are questionable at best, but journalists? It's kind of their job spec to look into these things and report on them. Maybe the report shows that this is all BS and then thats great. We have the report to say it, we have findings to say it. It won't be enough for some people, but then there's always going to be those people just like there are still people who think we didn't land men on the moon.

    I mean you're right, the claims are questionable. But they're still worth investigating.
    Last edited by Jesus_Phish; 03-09-2014 at 05:43 PM.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  5. #485
    Nah, you're done now man. You're talking bs. First you're saying it's been debunked, which infers that there was something to debunk, now when asked to show where this has been debunked you''re saying there was nothing in the first place? Come off it.
    It's also completely besides the point, since we're not talking about NG.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead_Cheiftain View Post
    I'm new here so just to be clear I'm not trying to be combative or to get one over but there seems to be a lot of over lap between those two. Where's the line? Also would (for example) the fine Young Capitalists brew-ha-ha fall under ZQs personal details?

    Once again; not being cheeky, just looking for some clarity.
    to be honest, I dont know. I dont know anyones problem with any of this, except the private meltdown which should stay private, and I respect that. The rest is either fluff and soon will fade to obscurity, or has a point and a point will be made. Its all not worth censoring, but it will be cut out for reasons from up high.

    Also, no more links to "proof" or any of that crap, weve had those already and theyre all gone for good reason (spam).

    discussing it all should be fine.


    also, note: bob, how do you know ZQ then? have you met her? how can you be absolutely sure that that person is someone you dislike? It certainly seems like a very annoying person to know, but how would I know, its the interwebs.
    - Tom De Roeck.

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    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  7. #487
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    Amusing 'A Guide to Ending "Gamers"'

    http://gamasutra.com/blogs/DevinWils...#comment250641

    And more chilled counter point: -

    http://sheslostcontrol.net/articles/...ending-gamers/

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Amusing 'A Guide to Ending "Gamers"'

    http://gamasutra.com/blogs/DevinWils...#comment250641
    A gamasutrian?
    This one follow the party line. So the author will not be demoted. Like the one that had the audacy to ask for moderation.

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tei View Post
    A gamasutrian?
    This one follow the party line. So the author will not be demoted. Like the one that had the audacy to ask for moderation.
    No doubt Gama Editor in Chief Leigh will be taking notes, whilst the detractors will be quietly silenced.

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Nah, you're done now man. You're talking bs. First you're saying it's been debunked, which infers that there was something to debunk, now when asked to show where this has been debunked you''re saying there was nothing in the first place? Come off it.
    The accusation was that ZQ slept with a writer and that writer then wrote positive coverage about her. That's been shown not be to true by 100s of people searching the internet and not being able to find a single article he wrote while he was with her. And the primary source for this whole thing himself, came along and edited said primary source with a note to the effect that she hadn't done anything wrong on a professional level. I'm not sure how much more it can be 'debunked'.

    It's been back-pedalled a bit now by some people (though some still stand by the claim that it happened) to "they slept together a few weeks after he wrote something, so they must have been problematically close beforehand". Which is just nonsense. I've had relationships go from 'professional' to 'intimate' over the course of a single evening. Hell, once I had a relationship go from 'strangers' to 'intimate' in about half an hour.

    Quote Originally Posted by strange headache View Post
    It's also completely besides the point, since we're not talking about NG.
    No, we're not much any more. We're still talking about ZQ loads though. Funny that.

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by strange headache View Post
    I know, ignorance is bliss.
    I was thinking about this... and it's not quite that. It's "acceptance is bliss". It's about learning and exploring the world and realising that it doesn't fit into the black and white lines people want to draw. Games journalists and indie developers are going to get to know each other. Friendships will form at different levels and at different times. It just happens, that's how the world works.

    Journalists can't feasible just avoid any contact with indie developers outside of the 'professional', nor should they have to. Nor they can disclose in every single article they write exactly 'how much friends' they are with the developer. Friendships are not binary and not measurable. They end up drinking in the same bar at GDC once. They're part of the same Netrunner tournament scene. They're friends of friends. They get invited to the same parties. And so on. There's a line, clearly, at which it becomes obvious: specifically - sex. But up to that point it's all degrees. And all relative to what you're writing too - a review will need more critical distance than a news story. And an interview will likely benefit from a pre-existing friendship.

    We have to rely on our journalists to act ethically in those situations, to manage them themselves. It requires trust. If that trust is obviously broken, it needs to bought to account in those specific circumstances, but 99% of games journalists have kept that trust and not offered any reason to doubt it. And be aware: a reason to doubt it does not just mean 'a connection' it means 'a connection with evidence it was abused'.

    Because, and lets get this clear, we cannot police this. Any attempt to do so will lead to as many false positives as actual positives. There's no single line we can point to and say: "this level of friendship is too high for critical distance". Because friendships don't work that way. Social circles don't work that way. They are grey, and muddy and overlap.

    And I genuinely think a lot of the people don't understand this. Because I didn't. Because I was like that too. And I would have been on that side of the fence. I wasn't a member of any social circles. I wasn't having relationships. I had some friends, and they were binary 'friends' and if they were mean or nasty then 'they're not my friend any more' and it was just as simple as people make out that this is.

    I do have sympathy for that. I think there are a lot people that wish games journalists were just like that, hermits that did nothing but deal with the facts and write things about games. But they're not. They're generally outgoing people (or people that have learned to fake being that way). They have to be to get stories. They have to be capable of calling up a PR guy on the phone. They have to be capable of direct human interaction, and be able to function in regular, mainstream society. And I think a lot of the detractors hate that. Because that's the barrier to them being able to be games journalists themselves. Or indie developers themselves.

    And cries of "be more ethical" start to turn slowly into "have fewer friends", and the voice behind it all, is sat in a corner just going "please be more like me?". And I get it. I totally get it. I would have been the same. They want their games writers to be like them, not like the rest of society that shuns and hurts them. And y'know, if being that way made them happy and content, I'd have no problem with it at all. But it doesn't, it makes them angry and sad and hateful. And that's not a fun way to be. Not ever.

    And that, I think, is why we keep coming back to Zoe Quinn. Because a guy who met a girl that he thought was like him, and it turned out, she wasn't. Instead she shunned and hurt him. And he felt angry, sad and hateful.

    And with that, I'm fairly sure I'm done.
    Last edited by deano2099; 03-09-2014 at 07:52 PM.

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post

    And that, I think, is why we keep coming back to Zoe Quinn. Because a guy who met a girl that he thought was like him, and it turned out, she wasn't. Instead she shunned and hurt him. And he felt angry, sad and hateful.
    and then turned around and posted their entire history together. nice people all around. Nice people that nobody should care about one way or the other.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  13. #493
    The only one who is stubbornly returning to "that thing" is you, deano. Yes that incident is relevant, but for reasons that you stubbornly refuse to admit, not for reasons that you simply cannot stop referring to. I wonder if you just want to sabotage the discussion to be had, because you simply refuse to acknowledge any other aspect of the discussion. Instead you keep beating on a dead horse and complain that people can't let go of "that thing", while constantly dragging the discussion back to it.

    and then turned around and posted their entire history together. nice people all around. Nice people that nobody should care about one way or the other.
    May I respectfully remind you of your own rules? If you don't want people to delve into that aspect of the discussion, then please don't bait them into replying to this.

  14. #494
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    It is symptomatic that we always come back to discussing people in place of issues, be it Quinn or Sarkeesian. It worries me how quick many are to judge other people based on not much more than rumors. Of course, people are easier to refute and I have yet to meet a saint myself. It's no wonder some people wish for the death of the gamer culture. It is certainly not one that thrives on values.

  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by strange headache View Post
    May I respectfully remind you of your own rules? If you don't want people to delve into that aspect of the discussion, then please don't bait them into replying to this.
    I thought that last bit about Nice People That Noone Should Care About One Way Or The Other was pretty obvious. Its none of our business, and to be honest, it doesnt seem like good examples of The Shiniest Human Beings. Thats not a baiting into reading it, thats just a: trust me, you dont wanna know.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    I do have sympathy for that. I think there are a lot people that wish games journalists were just like that, hermits that did nothing but deal with the facts and write things about games. But they're not. They're generally outgoing people (or people that have learned to fake being that way). They have to be to get stories. They have to be capable of calling up a PR guy on the phone. They have to be capable of direct human interaction, and be able to function in regular, mainstream society. And I think a lot of the detractors hate that. Because that's the barrier to them being able to be games journalists themselves. Or indie developers themselves.
    Great, empathetic post. I actually think Devin Faraci was going for a similar set of points (he just tends to let his combativeness overwhelm anything else). I'm not sure how we ultimately get past the current divide without trying to reach the people you're describing, although I'm also concerned about just how reachable many of them are. To that point, what do you think brought you from where you were to where you are?

  17. #497
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    It is symptomatic that we always come back to discussing people in place of issues, be it Quinn or Sarkeesian. It worries me how quick many are to judge other people based on not much more than rumors. Of course, people are easier to refute and I have yet to meet a saint myself. It's no wonder some people wish for the death of the gamer culture. It is certainly not one that thrives on values.
    But is this mechanism really exclusive for gaming culture ? I don't want to open discussion about politics where this happens all the time so it would be stating the obvious but there is certain sometimes blurred line betwenn propagating the values and occupying moral higher grounds. When in first situation personal stumble should not matter (as you said where are these saint pople ), while in second is not unusual that it causes certain "retribution" in a way "how about you get down of your hight horse" and it is rarly done in delicate way.

  18. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthile View Post
    It is symptomatic that we always come back to discussing people in place of issues, be it Quinn or Sarkeesian. It worries me how quick many are to judge other people based on not much more than rumors. Of course, people are easier to refute and I have yet to meet a saint myself. It's no wonder some people wish for the death of the gamer culture. It is certainly not one that thrives on values.
    Yeah, one thing that I've noticed in life, is that when someone is a hypocrite, it's generally an indication that they're right, rather than wrong. The values people hold most dear tend to be those they find hardest to achieve in themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Lion Tamer View Post
    Great, empathetic post. I actually think Devin Faraci was going for a similar set of points (he just tends to let his combativeness overwhelm anything else). I'm not sure how we ultimately get past the current divide without trying to reach the people you're describing, although I'm also concerned about just how reachable many of them are. To that point, what do you think brought you from where you were to where you are?
    It'll sound trite, but I grew up. Not in a 'oh grow up' sort of way, but a literal way. I had to get a job, and being a fairly smart and intelligent person (as most of these people genuinely are) I wasn't going to settle for something I could just fumble through and get paid minimum wage. So trained as a journalist - I had always been a decent writer (again, as many of these people are) but to apply that knew I'd have to face up to the social aspects which came more difficult to me. The bottom fell out of local journalism around that time so ended up in editorial in a very different professional field. And again, getting anywhere meant doing stuff I didn't like to improve myself.

    But a lot of that: it really was luck. And while I think ten years ago it was actual 'kids' that were doing this sort of thing, we're seeing more and more (at least in the UK) jobs being harder to come by, 'kids' living with parents well in to their 20s, with no actual responsibility, not being forced out into the world and having to adapt or die. It extends that phase hugely.

    I don't think that accounts for everybody, there are trolls, those just looking for an argument, and some with genuinely odd values, but I think that counts for a huge amount of it.

    How to deal, I'm less sure. I think the messages we send kids need to change. It shouldn't be 'be yourself'. It should be 'be the version of you you want to be'. That you can change, and that's okay. That you can play DnD and football. That you can lose weight but it'll be harder for you than other people - just like calculus and trigonometry is harder for them. That being a 'nice guy' is not enough - you need to be interesting and somewhat attractive. And that anyone can be 'somewhat attractive' with a bit of effort if they want to be. And it's not 'betraying yourself' to do that. Nor it is not being yourself to exercise, shower and shave regularly. No-one likes doing that, it's just something we have to do.

    And that social anxiety fucking sucks, but loads of people have it, but you can make it easier. And if you want what the other guys have, you can totally get it - but you will need to work at it. Because everyone has shit they need to work at, and that football might come easy to the jocks, but they struggle with spelling. Academic work might come easy to you, but you're going to struggle with exercise, or the social aspects of life. And that's all fine. And maybe schools need to work on actually teaching and improving social behaviour. I don't know.

  19. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    I do have sympathy for that. I think there are a lot people that wish games journalists were just like that, hermits that did nothing but deal with the facts and write things about games. But they're not. They're generally outgoing people (or people that have learned to fake being that way). They have to be to get stories. They have to be capable of calling up a PR guy on the phone. They have to be capable of direct human interaction, and be able to function in regular, mainstream society. And I think a lot of the detractors hate that. Because that's the barrier to them being able to be games journalists themselves. Or indie developers themselves.
    So you're basically suggesting that peoples upset with the duplicitous nature of the gaming press is nothing to do with ethics and everything to do with some sort of combination of jealousy and self loathing?

    Quote Originally Posted by strange headache View Post
    The only one who is stubbornly returning to "that thing" is you, deano. Yes that incident is relevant, but for reasons that you stubbornly refuse to admit, not for reasons that you simply cannot stop referring to. I wonder if you just want to sabotage the discussion to be had, because you simply refuse to acknowledge any other aspect of the discussion. Instead you keep beating on a dead horse and complain that people can't let go of "that thing", while constantly dragging the discussion back to it.
    Pretty much. It seems to be a bit of a 'think of the children' smokescreen that keeps getting thrown up to dilute any real discussion about practices and relationships in the industry. My question would be if, everything is kosher, what's to hide?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthile View Post
    It is symptomatic that we always come back to discussing people in place of issues, be it Quinn or Sarkeesian. It worries me how quick many are to judge other people based on not much more than rumors. Of course, people are easier to refute and I have yet to meet a saint myself. It's no wonder some people wish for the death of the gamer culture. It is certainly not one that thrives on values.
    Obviously because wanting a gaming press that holds to some standards of journalist integrity is completely without merit.

  20. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Then where is the scandal? Or are the ethical standards just lower there?
    To some extent. People are just more relaxed too. Plus there's scale in the mix.
    One thing is that before the internet really became a factor film journalism had already divided into the mainstream press and the enthusiast press, broadly speaking. As web sites became a buzz element there were moves to court various sites with the methods traditionally used elsewhere and a few payola scandals. But what that mostly exposed was that web film journalists wanted what everyone else got as being part of the whole industry and they were, in the end, as plied with gifts and booze and junkets as everyone else and would bend things a little some times to get that exclusive. Generally speaking that is, not just the ones who were caught in controversies. Did all of this alter their views on the material come review time? Perhaps in some imperceptible way. It's hard to tell.
    What seemed to happen, as the web/print divide finally became meaningless, is that the marketers realised that 1) corrupting the enthusiast press makes them less effective at reaching their audience. People like strong opinions. And 2) you don't really have to try very hard nor pay very much to get them on board! They're enthusiasts! Mostly they'll come to you.

    By contrast all games journalism is the enthusiast press, really. Or at least mostly. What's happening is it's developing (or being forced into becoming) a mainstream press as a less critical mainstream audience is appearing.

    What's the difference in terms of film, you might ask. Well mostly I label mainstream press all the little interviews and chat show appearances, spots on the news etc that is essentially just different forms of promotion (even if they accidentally contain insightful information). The average short review in you local paper or some such counts as part of this. Not terribly in depth, mostly impressions. Some, like my local, don't even review the film the first week of release. Just give it a rough outline (those who demand objective reviews would like this).

    Relating it all to the present debacle is tricky. For one games reviews and reporting still seems to matter. Whereas in film it doesn't matter all that much. The movie business leaks like a sieve, but only enthusiasts really care about any of that stuff. The games industry is sealed tighter than a lunar lander and goes to great lengths to keep it that way. Indeed the indie scene more resembles the cliquey networked stew of movies. It's probably part of why its such a topic; it's more open and there's always things to talk and gossip about. The majors are probably happy for the distraction.
    In general I think the majors of gaming would like it for reviews to not matter very much, and you do see it now and then with the odd blockbuster title. But it's not as easy because the immediacy of seeing a film and telling people about it isn't quite the same as games, nor the consumer outlay. It'll be interesting to see how it goes.

    In a way reportage not mattering as much should please the journalistic purity crowd. Integrity is much easier to maintain when no one cares as much what you say. But I'm not that clear on what that crowd want in the first place.

    Another complication to film and the media is celebrity. That always gives the press something to talk about and for people to focus on. Gaming doesn't really have that. There's a few names here and there and I think you can identify attempts to put a human face on gaming in the way people like Jade Raymond and Ken Levine have been paraded around as precocious leaders and singular auteur's at times. But the way the companies and software development itself works, and the fact there's not stars and great roles in the same way, means it can't really stick in the same fashion. It leaves something of a hole compared to other arts when you think about it.
    Indie gaming on the other hand can satisfy that thirst for personality and authorship very well indeed, almost having to make up for deficiencies in the rest of gaming. So it's no wonder passions run high on all fronts.

    I forget if I had a point, really. As to why potential tainting of film press doesn't matter that much, I doubt I'd say much that games writers, and you yourself, haven't said about similar things already. ie If you're looking at niche product or in depth reviews you're looking for enthusiast content and the people involved are probably going to be keen to share their strong feelings. That's why they bother with this stuff, in general. If you're worried that they might have some slant then explore the options. No one should have one source for everything. A basic level of slightly reserved trust is the normal state of life. Someone inclined to suspect all messages as tainted by default at the first sign of doubt I suspect has other problems.

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