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  1. #501
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    snip

    And with that, I'm fairly sure I'm done.
    Bravo Deano.

  2. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Obviously because wanting a gaming press that holds to some standards of journalist integrity is completely without merit.

    Personally, I don't think you should have any right to talk about "integrity" when you can't answer absolutely basic questions on what integrity is, and show a complete lack of understand of how most of this stuff works. EDIT: Not to mention the "values" of the group you're defending have included posting repeated, outright, blatantly obvious lies and falsehoods over and over, on every article, and in every forum they can find. But somehow there's no condemnation, just the same untruths, over and over. Yeah, values, right.

    Seriously - what is the difference between donating money to somebody who's work you support and have enjoyed via patreon, and paying more than the bare minimum in a humble bundle? Are they equivalent, in your eyes? If not, why aren't you doing your hunt on people who have done the second, and demanding to see proof of every humble bundle donor who's involved in the industry?

    Is this when somebody does a whole "Oh, I'd support your side if only you were NICER" towards Kadayi and tries to guilttrip them, or is it only one side of an argument that gets that?
    Last edited by Karrius; 03-09-2014 at 11:07 PM.

  3. #503
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus vinraith's Avatar
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    Thank you deano, that's the first thing anyone's said in this whole mess that begins to explain the bizarre phenomenon it's become (and the baffling length of threads like this). It would explain, in a way that nothing else has, why a case where no duplicity appears to have occurred has somehow become a rallying cry to a huge group of very angry people claiming to want "journalistic integrity."
    Last edited by vinraith; 04-09-2014 at 02:23 AM.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    And that social anxiety fucking sucks, but loads of people have it, but you can make it easier. And if you want what the other guys have, you can totally get it - but you will need to work at it. Because everyone has shit they need to work at, and that football might come easy to the jocks, but they struggle with spelling. Academic work might come easy to you, but you're going to struggle with exercise, or the social aspects of life. And that's all fine. And maybe schools need to work on actually teaching and improving social behaviour. I don't know.
    Quote Originally Posted by vinraith View Post
    Thank you deano, that's the first thing anyone's said in this whole mess that begins to explain the bizarre phenomenon it's become (and the baffling length of threads like this). It would explain, in a way that nothing else has, why a case where no duplicity appears to have occurred has somehow become a rallying cry to a huge group of very angle people claiming to want "journalistic integrity."
    Seconded. I really appreciate the earlier post and the thoughtful reply to my question, deano. I still have trouble putting myself in the shoes of people on that side of things, particularly since doing it by way of analogy doesn't compute at all for me. I consider myself part of any number of sub-cultures, and I certainly fit almost anyone's definition of a nerd. Checking those two boxes hasn't gotten me any closer to figuring this out; a more empathetic approach is the only way I'm gaining any understanding. I still can't imagine participating in the kind of directed fury we saw at the start, but I can recognize some twisted logic to people reacting poorly to the "end of gamer" pieces if they are just tuning in at that point in the narrative.

  5. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    The accusation was that ZQ slept with a writer and that writer then wrote positive coverage about her. That's been shown not be to true by 100s of people searching the internet and not being able to find a single article he wrote while he was with her. And the primary source for this whole thing himself, came along and edited said primary source with a note to the effect that she hadn't done anything wrong on a professional level. I'm not sure how much more it can be 'debunked'.
    It's right effing there: http://tmi.kotaku.com/the-indie-game...ell-1555599284

    There's also other people that she slept with that have also written about said event at that time, one even praising her "integrity":
    http://soundselfgame.com/?p=302
    http://indiestatik.com/2014/03/31/mo...sive-game-jam/

    No, because the Editor of Kotaku comes out and says that Nathan told him they actually only slept with each other only like *5 days* after that and he forgot to mention it till a massive shit storm it doesn't mean it's true or that people have to believe it. It doesn't even matter, them being a close "in clique" paying each other and doing each other favors and that they didn't feel it was worth disclosing any of that or recusing themselves is enough to look further into it.

    If anything that Gjoni said was untrue they would have denied it and could have sued him for slander/libel, he was very careful to make sure that doesn't happen providing visual proof for almost all of his claims. If the allegations against IGF were untrue they would have denied it, instead they said it's nobodies business and removed their sponsors page.

    And that's not even all there was to it: http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/commen...dez_of_kotaku/

    This is how SJWs work, censorship, not allowing anybody to provide any proof on the threat of banning by saying that something is "private and not their business", not allowing inquisitive questions and feeling attacked in their ideology and telling others to "fuck off" when they have a different opinion or argument to present that they don't agree with (John Walker) is the main weapon.

    "You can argue with us, but you aren't allowed to provide any proof or say anything that we disagree with!"

    Luckily there are enough other channels that will address all of this and look more into it including 4chan, Reddit (there's a Subreddit about the state of games journalism: http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/ , The Escapist thread and many other resources).

    There's a lawyer team involved now too and people are collecting money for them to start an official legal investigation into the entire matter: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/l...ing-corruption and you are going to feel stupid when the results of all this come biting people in the ass after you've repeated for three weeks that there's "nothing there".

    It even ended up on AlJazeera, although they don't seem to exactly know what is going on: http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201409032102-0024126 and gaming sites still haven't decided to chime in, instead they declared gamers are dead. And on forums like this one it's apparently still a "non-story" not worth talking about. Funny that.

    Regarding Devin Faraci, he's definitely a cool dude worth listening to, a voice of reason so to say: http://imgur.com/a/sULva
    Last edited by harbinger; 04-09-2014 at 02:04 AM.

  6. #506
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    Amazing. Saying "I am reporting on a story posted at X, and persons A, B, and C corroborated this story elsewhere" is now being defined as "positive coverage for person C".

    It's not that people aren't saying you aren't allowed to provide proof. It's people are saying your proof sucks. That's not proof of what you're claiming.

    You go on and on about how the other people are evil for supporting censorship, and then ask "But if they're right, why aren't they suing people?". Doesn't that strike you as hypocritical? Do you not see the really basic, really obvious hole in your argument there?

    But it's so good you are literally linking and praising a group that has apparently named themselves similarly to a group of people on the same website who's stated goal is to harass minorities, the disabled, and so on. I wonder if there's any overlap there? Oh, look, you're using some of the same kind of language ("that's how SJWs work") that those people use. I would assume so! Should I draw a picture with circles and lines linking you to the reddit hatemongering subcultures?

    Listen - it's not that you have the objective, truthful facts and everyone else is too irrational and evil to agree with you. It's that, get this, people disagree with you. An amazing concept, I know.

  7. #507
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus vinraith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    So you're basically suggesting that peoples upset with the duplicitous nature of the gaming press is nothing to do with ethics and everything to do with some sort of combination of jealousy and self loathing?
    For what it's worth, Kad, I think you (unlike the thronging angry masses) are actually interested in a conversation about ethics, and have just unfortunately grabbed on to the worst, most tainted, most problematic example possible to try and make your point. A real conversation about journalistic ethics in game writing absolutely cannot start from the witch hunt melodrama that is the ZQ story, it's poison to any productive conversation on the topic (seriously, just look at harbinger's post). You've asked some good questions, which deserve real discussion, and that will never be found in a thread like this one.
    Last edited by vinraith; 04-09-2014 at 02:37 AM.

  8. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    So you're basically suggesting that peoples upset with the duplicitous nature of the gaming press is nothing to do with ethics and everything to do with some sort of combination of jealousy and self loathing?
    No, just some of them. Because there has to be something else at play here. To put it another way, as I'm done with the initial debate now, but if this is truly all about ethical standards for games journalists, why has the reaction been so strong and so vociferous from so many parts of the internet? Why, to accept your premise, do games fans care about journalism ethics so damn much compared to fans of other media/interests?

  9. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by harbinger View Post
    No, because the Editor of Kotaku comes out and says that Nathan told him they actually only slept with each other only like *5 days* after that
    See, I get that. You think "five days, so something must have been going on beforehand". And I get that point of view, and in certain social strata and value systems that makes sense. And it makes sense in the belief system of a lot of people angry about this.

    But in other belief systems, five days can be an eternity. I've only done it once, but I've been to a club, met a total stranger, and ended up in bed with them just five hours later. Five days before that, we didn't even know the other person existed. This happens. Not saying it's right, or sensible, or even moral. It's often a very bad idea. But it happens. Lots.

    Could 'something' have been going on 'five days before'? Sure, it's possible. But where you assume that must be the case, I can see them meeting for the interview, hitting it off, one invites the other along to a party at the weekend, they end up sleeping together. That's not far fetched, that's not something that happens only in movies, it's something that happens all the time. It's basic social interaction. It's how a lot of relationships start, especially in your 20s.

    And that's part of this disconnect. That cannot possibly be the explanation because 'that's not what nerds like us do', because 'hooking up is for jocks with no morals'. Because sleeping around is what the 'cool' kids do. Because going from 'professional acquaintance' to 'intimate' without first going through three months of 'friends' is not something they can comprehend. It's what football players do, not games writers and indie devs.

  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by harbinger View Post
    Luckily there are enough other channels that will address all of this and look more into it including 4chan, Reddit (there's a Subreddit about the state of games journalism: http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/ , The Escapist thread and many other resources).
    I'm just going to point out how your link - and I really wish I hadn't clicked it - contained, on the front page, a group of people talking about how evil it is to point out that a company advertising "the ultimate character customization tool ever invented" - that's the words of the COMPANY, mind you - does not actually let you make non-white characters or women.

    That's what this subreddit apparently wants to stand up for. Making sure it's clear that "the ultimate character customization tool ever invented" does not need to include non-white people or women, because those people don't matter, apparently. And if you point out that maybe "the ultimate character creation tool" should maybe include people other then white men, you're an "evil SJW" trying to force your politics on others.

    THIS is the sort of ethics and values you're standing by and supporting?

    It's stuff like this that makes it very clear that the real "controversy" to these people is the existence of people other then white men in gaming, not anything to do with journalistic ethics.

  11. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karrius View Post
    You go on and on about how the other people are evil for supporting censorship, and then ask "But if they're right, why aren't they suing people?". Doesn't that strike you as hypocritical? Do you not see the really basic, really obvious hole in your argument there?
    No I don't think that's hypocritical at all. These laws are specifically there if an individual spreads lies about a person that could damage their career or personal reputation. Since they didn't choose to deny any of the allegations or take any legal action, admitted to a relationship even on a statement at Kotaku and said individual provided photographic evidence this doesn't seem to apply.

    Oh, look, you're using some of the same kind of language ("that's how SJWs work") that those people use.
    Calling a spade a spade, if he acts like one (refusal to listen to any contrary opinions, ignoring of facts or statistics that go against ones ideology, censorship of matters that are found too "delicate", most conversation to be had either with people that agree with said world view or telling people to fuck off), also it's in the Twitter profile: https://twitter.com/botherer

    Listen - it's not that you have the objective, truthful facts and everyone else is too irrational and evil to agree with you. It's that, get this, people disagree with you. An amazing concept, I know.
    Luckily you don't stand for "people", and there seem to be an awful lot of people interested in all of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    See, I get that. You think "five days, so something must have been going on beforehand". And I get that point of view, and in certain social strata and value systems that makes sense. And it makes sense in the belief system of a lot of people angry about this.
    It's moved well beyond this, the current targets of the investigation are the IGF, Silverstring Media and general gaming publications like Kotaku. I only brought it up because you claim that hundreds of sources denied anything happened, when that isn't the truth. In fact Kotaku confirmed it did, just deflected from the issue by saying it was days later and proclaimed everything is well and no actions will be taken. I don't think many people care about her specifically at this point anymore, especially since the Conflict of Interest wouldn't have been on her side to begin with. It's not #QuinnGate, it's #GamerGate: https://www.hashtags.org/analytics/gamergate/ which is admittedly a decidedly stupid name, but Adam Baldwin (of Firefly/Full Metal Jacket fame) made it up, so any complaints belong in that general direction. He's also going to appear on a radio show talking about it apparently and he invited Patrick Klepek to join him, I doubt he'll take the invitation: https://twitter.com/AdamBaldwin/stat...64947584512000

    Quote Originally Posted by Karrius View Post
    I'm just going to point out how your link - and I really wish I hadn't clicked it - contained, on the front page, a group of people talking about how evil it is to point out that a company advertising "the ultimate character customization tool ever invented" - that's the words of the COMPANY, mind you - does not actually let you make non-white characters or women.
    You mean a company trying to create a historically accurate game taking place in the Kingdom of Bohemia during a specific time period they are trying to recreate with historical figures, places and battles being reenacted including a fixed protagonist due to story reasons? The one Kotaku posted a sensational article about: https://archive.today/89jXI literally based on bad history material? http://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/c..._medieval_poc/

    Yeah, that's also a problem.
    Last edited by harbinger; 04-09-2014 at 04:56 AM.

  12. #512
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    harbinger, are you then saying you personally see no problem with the "ultimate character customization tool" completely excluding anyone who is not a white man? Do you think something can be ULTIMATE at making characters if it only allows you to make white men? Because that's what I'm pointing out. And you seem to be OK with that. It has nothing to do with historical accuracy, and everything to do with "the ultimate character customization tool" ONLY being for white men.

    The reason I point this out is that this "journalistic ethics" campaign has a heavy undercurrent of sexism, racism, transphobia, and homophobia through it - and when you link to stuff like that, and then DEFEND stuff like that, it suggests that the bigotry isn't the undercurrent, so much as it's the actual current.

  13. #513
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    I'm not sure how you get the idea that it's only "white men" (you could have added straight to it, because that's apparently the worst thing somebody could be ever), in fact you obviously didn't check the facts before you started foaming about it:


    As for the rest, the game takes place in 1403 in the Kingdom of Bohemia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Bohemia and it's supposed to be historically accurate. It isn't set in Medieval China, South America or Africa and I don't think the issues you bring up were a particular topic at the time. The developers should be free to create the game they want without anyone force-feeding them issues or publications like Kotaku writing inane articles about it.

    This is getting kind of off topic now though.

  14. #514
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    You again dance around, and refuse to answer the question about it being the "ultimate character customization tool". Yes, it's off topic, because you're dragging it off topic - bringing up things that don't matter, like the time period. I'm not going to make a game where all you can do is change your character's hair style, and claim it's the "ultimate character creation tool".

    Also, you link to a reddit page in post 511 where some of the top commentors who disagree with the person who's claims you're saying are bullshit, are, again, "tumblrinaction" commentors who, again, are known to be racist, vile pieces of shit that go out of their way to target minorities and disabled teenagers to harass and abuse for their own fun. http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/9...lking-violence

    Maybe if you want to be taken seriously, stop linking to hate websites. Stop claiming this is about journalistic ethics and using hate websites as your "proof". Stop saying the other people are wrong, and linking to racists and abusers as your sources.

    You bring up history that nobody talked about for no reason, to claim something is "bad history", because people who send racist messages and attack disabled teenagers in their free time told you it was. You are neither a good judge of character or facts.
    Last edited by Karrius; 04-09-2014 at 05:31 AM.

  15. #515
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    You're decidedly heading into: https://twitter.com/hashtag/notyourshield?f=realtime territory now.
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwqXFMLIUAAXUJG.jpg



    I think someone summed it up great:
    I just realized something. Every time I've brought up my sexuality (Bi/gay) as a rebuttal to being called CisHetWhiteMale the person I've called out on bullshit has told me that my experiences are wrong, they think that if you haven't experienced harassment you are either self hating or are ignorant or something.


    It's a horrible work of logic because it invalidates any opinion from anyone who doesn't 100% agree with them, if your a girl you've internalized misogyny, if you are bi or gay you are self hating, if you are non white you are an apologist for racism. They are making them self the arbiter of what these people should think and trying to lock them into being permanent victims. It's vile and I really hope that #NotYourShield crushes it in this case.

  16. #516
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    Good way to absolutely avoid any of the points brought up, change the subject, and avoid any actual discussion. Of course, it's everyone ELSE trying to avoid discussion in your eyes, somehow, despite the fact that you refuse to take responsibility for the shit you have posted, linked to, and said.

    Values! These people claim they stand for VALUES! Amazing.

    Edit: So, why not explain, pure and simple. Why do YOU think it is acceptable to link to websites that have a history of attacking PoC and the disabled for proof? Why do YOU think it is acceptable to be a part of a community that is modeling itself after and linking itself to a website that has a history of attacking PoC and the disabled? Do you have any answers for these, or will you just ignore them and try to change the subject again? The fact that you can link to a picture of a black person who agrees with you about some things does NOT mean you can promote the racists within your group and not get tarred as a racist yourself.
    Last edited by Karrius; 04-09-2014 at 06:32 AM.

  17. #517
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    Again, except for the whole zq stupidity and -ist, I dont edit content. I fail to see how reddit should be banned for linking to it because it has a couple of vile users?
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  18. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by harbinger View Post
    This is how SJWs work, censorship, not allowing anybody to provide any proof on the threat of banning by saying that something is "private and not their business", not allowing inquisitive questions and feeling attacked in their ideology and telling others to "fuck off" when they have a different opinion or argument to present that they don't agree with (John Walker) is the main weapon.

    "You can argue with us, but you aren't allowed to provide any proof or say anything that we disagree with!"
    See, you want the moral high ground but you say this garbage, pretending it's not about sides it's about the "truth".
    Even if you report for people who have all the facts (and you don't yet) people should ignore you as anything but a dishonest arguer at this point.

  19. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzman View Post
    See, you want the moral high ground but you say this garbage, pretending it's not about sides it's about the "truth".
    Even if you report for people who have all the facts (and you don't yet) people should ignore you as anything but a dishonest arguer at this point.
    No, I disagree with Harbinger mostly, but he does have a point on that one: there is absolutely no need to tell everyone to fuck off that wants to discuss. Yeah, some of it is private, but some of it isnt. just doing a blanket statement is what kills discussion and raises valid criticism, as opposed to "if theres nothing to discuss, they will end up with nothing to discuss".


    Talk and let talk, is what I say. Except when youre a bastard.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

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    Responding blanket statements with blanket statements is really of no use to anyone, particularly when claiming the cause of 'truth, justice and the american way' or whatever he professes to be about.

    "This is how SJWs work!" is hogwash and he should know it.

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