The Scandinavian Question

[nimzy]

I stopped to think about some PC game developers that are doing things I find interesting. And then I did a double-take. DICE, Mojang, Paradox, CCP... They're all in Scandinavia. Specifically, Sweden, although CCP is a literal and figurative outlier all the way out there in Iceland. All of these companies are characterized by what can be called risk-taking behavior, a willingness to pursue a vision to its logical extremes. Obviously the examples I've named are just the most wildly successful guys out there in the frozen north. For example in Sweden, according to the industry-specific list (http://www.swedishgamesindustry.com/...evelopers.aspx) there's something like 100-ish companies and about 1,100 actual people doing the developing.

So what I really want to know is, why do so many great games and ideas keep coming out of this area of the world? Is it like Uwe Boll and the German government? Is there some kind of educational center cranking out a new generation of programming geniuses with a ton of free time on their hands? A social club? The possibilities are endless.

[zeekthegeek]

Maybe i's the cold weather and Socialism.

But seriously I have no idea.

[Shane]

Don't forget Eastern Europe and Russia.

[Taidan]

Settle them all in Madagascar and be done with it.

What? Ohhhh, that question.

I have no idea, but there is definitely something about the Scandinavian character that I have a deep admiration for. I played WoW for about five years from launch, and did a fair bit of dirty Guild hopping along the way. Learned a lot about how different parts of Europe work.

Italians, for example... Well, they're the absolute scum of the earth. Pathologically dishonest, if they think they can cheat somebody and get away with it they will try, every single time. They're usually also the first to try and assign blame when something goes wrong, very loudly, whether it's their fault or not. Sounds like an unfair generalization, but if somebody's first question upon joining your party/raid is "Ita?", then there's at least a 90% chance that sort of behaviour will follow.

The British seem to be a bit of a wild-card. Generally honest, but the younglings are uncontrollable. They need good leadership to get the best out them of them, otherwise they seem to fall foul of general apathy. Tolerance for frustration varies wildly, normally depending on differing levels of inebriation/nicotine.

Uh, back on topic...

The Swedish and the Norwiggers, on the other hand, are absolutely delightful people to play that sort of game with. They're incredibly laid back, but they get s**t done. They approach even the worst f**k-ups with a sense of humour, then keep going. Fearless, too.

Best WoW Raiding I ever did was with Scandinavian players, I absolutely wouldn't want to run the really difficult stuff with anybody else.

I'm imagining something of that character helps with game development, too.

[Nalano]

Don't forget Eastern Europe and Russia.

Well, that would certainly lead credence to the "cold weather and socialism" aspect.

What? Ohhhh, that question.

[snip]

[Land Squid]

Sounds like an unfair generalization

Yes.

......

[Shane]

The Swedish and the Norwiggers, on the other hand, are absolutely delightful people to play that sort of game with. They're incredibly laid back, but they get s**t done. They approach even the worst f**k-ups with a sense of humour, then keep going. Fearless, too.

Absolutely agree with this. It's really great fun playing with them, you don't see the irritability and arrogance that is otherwise rampant in online gaming, in these guys.

[Nalano]

Absolutely agree with this. It's really great fun playing with them, you don't see the irritability and arrogance that is otherwise rampant in online gaming, in these guys.

Well, at least until somebody tries to sell e-shirts for how much real shirts cost.

[Skalpadda]

you don't see the irritability and arrogance that is otherwise rampant in online gaming, in these guys.

We keep it all bottled up on the inside.

[pakoito]

Absolutely agree with this. It's really great fun playing with them, you don't see the irritability and arrogance that is otherwise rampant in online gaming, in these guys.

You people haven't played Heroes of Newerth against the Swedish teens, it's like hearing a dolphin trash-talking on the microphone.

[Fiyenyaa]

Italians, for example... Well, they're the absolute scum of the earth. Pathologically dishonest, if they think they can cheat somebody and get away with it they will try, every single time. They're usually also the first to try and assign blame when something goes wrong, very loudly, whether it's their fault or not. Sounds like an unfair generalization, but if somebody's first question upon joining your party/raid is "Ita?", then there's at least a 90% chance that sort of behaviour will follow.

During my 3-year tenure with EVE, I spent more than a year in a little corp. The leaders were an Italian guy, his son, and one of his friends: these guys were some of the most honest people I've ever interacted with in video games: they organised resources and ships to be given to new members, made sure out combat pilots were equipped (often from their own pocket when corp funds were running low), and generally were EVE-gentlemen.

So yeah, it does sound like an unfair generalisation.

[icupnimpn2]

During my 3-year tenure with EVE, I spent more than a year in a little corp. The leaders were an Italian guy, his son, and one of his friends: these guys were some of the most honest people I've ever interacted with in video games: they organised resources and ships to be given to new members, made sure out combat pilots were equipped (often from their own pocket when corp funds were running low), and generally were EVE-gentlemen.

So yeah, it does sound like an unfair generalisation.

Obviously they were running a long con on you.

[Taidan]

During my 3-year tenure with EVE, I spent more than a year in a little corp. The leaders were an Italian guy, his son, and one of his friends: these guys were some of the most honest people I've ever interacted with in video games: they organised resources and ships to be given to new members, made sure out combat pilots were equipped (often from their own pocket when corp funds were running low), and generally were EVE-gentlemen.

So yeah, it does sound like an unfair generalisation.

Not to dismiss your anecdotal evidence out of hand, but to be entirely fair to myself, it sounds like I've met a lot more nice Italians than you. I mean, since I clearly specified that only 90% of them were displaying the unfavourable characteristics, that leaves us with a nice round 10% that are displaying "reasonable" behaviour. (well, as reasonable as you'd expect a bloodthirsty Orc Warrior to be when raiding and pillaging enemy strongholds.)

Given that my stay in Azeroth lasted just over five years, and that these encounters were happening perhaps 3 or 4 times a week on average, that leaves me with quite a large pool to draw my data from. If we add your two Italians, and round in the most favourable way possible, that probably takes us from 90% "Scum Factor" down to 89% at most.

Still not exactly a good statistic. (And that's leaving aside any consensus I've taken from dozens upon dozens of other players I have discussed this gravely important matter with, which is entire unanimous.)

SCIENCE!

. . . .

. . . .

. . . .

;)

[icupnimpn2]

Wow, Taidan. Strong stuff. I vote you spin off a "national character of online gamers" thread and see how long it takes before Jom locks it down.

[Taidan]

Wow, Taidan. Strong stuff. I vote you spin off a "national character of online gamers" thread and see how long it takes before Jom locks it down.

Hmmm. Apart from my sweeping condemnation of an entire country based wholly upon how they interact with others in a online fantasy RPG, (SRSBZNS, yo.) and my own completely biased views on the Welsh, I think I'm almost done with the subject. ;)

The "Italians thing", though... Yes, I can only imagine it looks terrible to the uninitiated. Let's say "Absolute scum of the Earth" was a bit out of order on my part, and substitute the term "massive cultural divide on issues regarding honesty, fair play and respect for others".

Forget Horde vs. Alliance. If you wanted to see bloodshed and warfare, it would be what went on between the Italians and "Every Other European Country" in Dalaran Chat during the the weekends and evenings on Runetotem. The levels of verbal carnage between the two groups was epic, in a word, and that's in an environment were people had a lot to lose in terms of potentially getting a permanent ban for racism.

I wish I'd saved transcripts of the general chat on my server, or could invite them all here to comment or something.

[Nalano]

The "Italians thing", though... Yes, I can only imagine it looks terrible to the uninitiated. Let's say "Absolute scum of the Earth" was a bit out of order on my part, and substitute the term "massive cultural divide on issues regarding honesty, fair play and respect for others".

"Those Italians aren't pure monsters,per se; they're merely liars and thieves!"

If you want to see bloodshed and warfare, you don't play WoW. If you want to see internet drama, guess what: Every server had an epic level of dramalulz. Hell, mine had an unreasoning hatred of Argentinians and a community 200+ large of ERPers.

[Taidan]

Hell, mine had an unreasoning hatred of Argentinians

Well, after watching them play football during the World Cup, I'd say they're pretty much in the same boat as the Italians... ;)

[Jockie]

I can't tell if Taidan is being tongue in cheek or not (and I'm staying the hell away from those comments on Italians) .... but I do kind of agree with him on the Norwegians, Not to make sweeping generalisations but in my experience they are less prone to outbursts of rage and are calm under pressure (when playing online games), I always figured it was something to do with the compulsory military service.

As for the 'why are these countries making awesome pc games' I know in russia and parts of eastern europe where it's down to the fact there are basically a lot more PCs than consoles, is there a similar cultural thing in Scandinavian countries, that mean PC gaming is more ingrained?

[Skalpadda]

is there a similar cultural thing in Scandinavian countries, that mean PC gaming is more ingrained?

I think it's fairly common for people to have decent PCs at home but console gaming is pretty big here as well. We do spend a lot of time in front of our PCs and were quite early with computer education in schools (as well as work places) and building up internet infrastructure which has lead to the generations born in the 80s and later being used to using computers from a young age. No idea how that actually compares to the rest of Europe though. I remember reading a study a while back about the Finns saying something like they were the populace who spoke the least to each other while having the best communication infrastructure in the world.

Btw, if we're nominating awesome people to play games with, I think the Dutch deserve a mention :)

[thegooseking]

Nerdiness has never really had the stigma in Nordic cultures that it has in other cultures (to the point that the Swedish government itself actually runs LARPs), so there's that.