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  1. #1

    The death of FPS, or, "If Quake was created today"



    Not that it'll make it to RPS, but IMHO this is front-page worthy.

    Edit: NOT a video of my own creation, BTW.
    Last edited by casimirsblake; 03-11-2011 at 08:24 PM.

  2. #2
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    "Mehed" trough the vast inaccuracies of the thing...

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    Surely there would be more bloom effects and motion blur.

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus thegooseking's Avatar
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    I'm not one of "the kids" who "have it so easy these days". I'm someone with an actual memory, someone who remembers when people were sick of hearing about yet another game trying to be Quake. We got flooded with Quake-likes and it got boring. That's what the hell happened.
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    Lesser Hivemind Node Flint's Avatar
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    Someone running/rocketjumping through a level in hyperspeed isn't exactly the best representation of why classic FPS games are better.
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    Lesser Hivemind Node Juan Carlo's Avatar
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    I don't know. I've always though Quake was overrated. I didn't even really like it when it was released. I remember preferring "Duke Nukem 3D" and the other Build Engine games at the time. Sure it was revolutionary in working out how all following 3D FPS's would control and play, but it's just such a boring, sterile, world that it never held my interest. Plus, the levels weren't all that big or anything, and mostly consisted of finding keys to open doors over and over again, so I think people holding it up as a paragon of FPS excellence against modern shooters are looking at it through rose tinted glasses.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Flint View Post
    Someone running/rocketjumping through a level in hyperspeed isn't exactly the best representation of why classic FPS games are better.
    Yeah, physics glitches and being able to skip 3/4 of each level is of interest to crazy speedrunners, and that's just about it. Quake was generally a pretty slow-paced game with relatively small monster counts, compared to Doom.

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    Did someone say Monster Counts!?

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegooseking View Post
    I'm not one of "the kids" who "have it so easy these days". I'm someone with an actual memory, someone who remembers when people were sick of hearing about yet another game trying to be Quake. We got flooded with Quake-likes and it got boring. That's what the hell happened.
    Well, to be fair, that's just one example of a fad, of which there have been plenty since. Remember the Duke Nukem-alikes a la Shadow Warrior, the spat of "hey, we should put a stealth section in because it worked so well for Thief," and the post-Halo SPEZ MAHREENS. I mean, as it stands, we're in the "brown Tom Clancy gun-wank" phase right now.

    That being said, I miss the frenetic MPFPS of rocket-jumps and dodging and ridiculous twitch-aim of Quake Arena and Unreal Tournament, because we really don't have a modern-day equivalent.
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  10. #10
    Network Hub Taidan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flint View Post
    Someone running/rocketjumping through a level in hyperspeed isn't exactly the best representation of why classic FPS games are better.
    On the contrary, it's a beautifully illustrated example of why Quake is still a better game than 99.9% of the crap we've seen since.

    Could you imagine a gamer trying to do a Quake-style speedrun on a modern shooter? It's just never going to happen, as modern shooters simply do not allow for that level of skill to be shown.

  11. #11
    Lesser Hivemind Node Flint's Avatar
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    Well I'd have to disagree there, I think the reason old FPS games are better to today's stuff is because of several other gameplay/design differences between the two 'eras' of which none is how well it adapts to speedrunning (which I find inherently boring).
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    Lesser Hivemind Node DigitalSignalX's Avatar
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    Double obligatory:

    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalSignalX View Post
    I lolled.

    Obligatory:
    All times I have enjoyed greatly, have suffered greatly, both with those that loved me, and alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taidan View Post

    Could you imagine a gamer trying to do a Quake-style speedrun on a modern shooter? It's just never going to happen, as modern shooters simply do not allow for that level of skill to be shown.
    You are right: games are less buggy these days. The stuff that allowed those speed-runs were happy accidents. They weren't game design. Games are tighter these days so it doesn't tend to happen too much. This is a result of games designers getting better at their jobs.

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    You are right: games are less buggy these days. The stuff that allowed those speed-runs were happy accidents. They weren't game design. Games are tighter these days so it doesn't tend to happen too much. This is a result of games designers getting better at their jobs.
    If "getting better at their jobs" means "eliminating options for players," then yes, they're getting better at their jobs.

    Consequently, have you heard of the term "emergent gameplay?"
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  15. #15
    Network Hub MD!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic Tarason View Post
    Yeah, physics glitches and being able to skip 3/4 of each level is of interest to crazy speedrunners, and that's just about it. Quake was generally a pretty slow-paced game with relatively small monster counts, compared to Doom.
    Man, ask anyone who still cares about Quake, or currently plays one of its successors, whether the 'physics glitches' (i.e. bunnyhopping/strafe-jumping/weapon jumping) are of interest to them. The movement system is absolutely crucial to Quake's lasting appeal, and to the appeal of Quake Live, CPMA, Warsow, etc.

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taidan View Post
    On the contrary, it's a beautifully illustrated example of why Quake is still a better game than 99.9% of the crap we've seen since.

    Could you imagine a gamer trying to do a Quake-style speedrun on a modern shooter? It's just never going to happen, as modern shooters simply do not allow for that level of skill to be shown.
    This is the endless argument between CS1.6 and CSS. CS1.6 has many bugs which can be exploited. CSS has removed or is trying to remove them (even now... there were massive bugs in the recoil which only recently have been fixed, such as the Glock being more accurate while running. The result? Outrage!).

    I honestly don't think that exploiting bugs trough quick 'tricks' does one make more skilled then someone else. I always ahve been much more in favor of games like the Battlefield franchise, were tactical placement and teamwork is key.

    Also... I just saw the below video, and the first 60 seconds featured the same sort of hints that modern games feature (which for some reason are loathed), such as 'you can crouch here'...



    That being said, I miss the frenetic MPFPS of rocket-jumps and dodging and ridiculous twitch-aim of Quake Arena and Unreal Tournament, because we really don't have a modern-day equivalent.
    UT3? :P.
    Last edited by Grizzly; 04-11-2011 at 06:29 AM.

  17. #17
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Rii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taidan View Post
    It's just never going to happen, as modern shooters simply do not allow for that level of skill to be shown.
    Ah, the games-as-chess-or-sport thing. Exemplified most obviously by Starcraft. A game which was also renowned (at the time) for its narrative and stylistic achievements. Hmm.

    There's nothing wrong with enjoying or even preferring games of this ilk, but they're not the only kinds of games. The problem isn't that games like Call of Duty exist, the problem is that other kinds have all but disappeared. And of course we could go into the various reasons for that...

  18. #18
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sinister agent's Avatar
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    Quake was boring, clunky and relentlessly brown. Even Doom was much more fun, despite being a lot simpler.

    I agree with Juan Carlo. Nostalgia aint what it used to be.

  19. #19
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taidan View Post
    Could you imagine a gamer trying to do a Quake-style speedrun on a modern shooter? It's just never going to happen, as modern shooters simply do not allow for that level of skill to be shown.
    What, all games should become speed runs? It might just be that a lot of people don't really care about that. I watched the end of the video thinking "Wow, he's breezing through those maps in the blink of an eye. Is that fun?" Not sure about you, but cutting a game down to a few minutes of gameplay isn't fun for me.

    As for level design: that diagram pretty much misses out the fact that there's still a linear progression masked by lots of backtracking. I remember one particular jokewad for zDoom which made this point pretty clear. It's a long corridor divided into two sections by a fence, with a gap at the far end. You had to go all the way to the end and over to the other side of the fence, then back down to the start, where you'd hit a switch... which revealed a switch on the other side... which revealed a switch on the other side... etc. Replace "switch" with "key" every so often for the complete effect.

    I think old games are better not because of level design or mechanics like speed running but because they required a lot more imagination on behalf of the player due to technical limitations. Like Doom maps aren't overly obvious as to what they're supposed to represent due to technological limitations. Factory in Doom 2 for example could have been anything but we make the visuals fit purely because the title is "Factory", same as the Suburbs and Downtown maps. Making the primitive geometry work within the context and sorting out what it might be is what I like most about the old FPS games. Today graphical fidelity pretty much removes any opportunity for interpretation, especially since style has given way to raw realism to fuel the videocard wars.

  20. #20
    Lesser Hivemind Node DigitalSignalX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    Ah, the games-as-chess-or-sport thing. Exemplified most obviously by Starcraft. A game which was also renowned (at the time) for its narrative and stylistic achievements. Hmm.

    There's nothing wrong with enjoying or even preferring games of this ilk, but they're not the only kinds of games. The problem isn't that games like Call of Duty exist, the problem is that other kinds have all but disappeared. And of course we could go into the various reasons for that...
    FPS speed runs and Pro Starcraft can't really be categorized together imo. Technically you can lable them both competitive and requiring lots of practice, but the analogy fails immediately after. A quake run is pure and simple reflexive repetition and practice doing the exact same thing over and over and over hundreds, even thousands of times till you're shaving tenths of a second off each run. It's memorizing the maps and the exact precision key stroke/mouse slide to proceed.

    Starcraft, and even more so with its sequel today, is about much of that, but also tactics. About the other person. About choices based on certain conditions, about unit compositions, positioning, resource management and literally dozens more evolving elements that you don't have to contend with in speed runs.
    All times I have enjoyed greatly, have suffered greatly, both with those that loved me, and alone.

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