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  1. #21
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Well, to be fair, that's just one example of a fad, of which there have been plenty since. Remember the Duke Nukem-alikes a la Shadow Warrior, the spat of "hey, we should put a stealth section in because it worked so well for Thief," and the post-Halo SPEZ MAHREENS. I mean, as it stands, we're in the "brown Tom Clancy gun-wank" phase right now.

    That being said, I miss the frenetic MPFPS of rocket-jumps and dodging and ridiculous twitch-aim of Quake Arena and Unreal Tournament, because we really don't have a modern-day equivalent.
    Though of course, technically, Halo was just a Marathon clone by the original developer :D
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  2. #22
    Network Hub MD!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    I honestly don't think that exploiting bugs trough quick 'tricks' does one make more skilled then someone else. I always ahve been much more in favor of games like the Battlefield franchise, were tactical placement and teamwork is key.
    Would you say that learning to use Quake's physics engine to your advantage is a case of "exploiting bugs trough quick 'tricks'"? If so, you're implying that masterful Quake movement is not a skill -- what on earth is it, then?

    As far as I can tell it's one of the purest forms of physically skilful gameplay. Mouse-and-keyboard-related physical skills might not be your idea of fun, which is fair enough. But they are skills for sure, and pretty deep ones (in terms of the gap between a mediocre player and a great player, and the amount of improvement possible for any given player).

    To answer the 'Quake speedrunning is just learning through repetition' point: sure, but put it into a multiplayer context, where you're deathmatching rather than speedrunning, but with the same movement possibilities (plus a bunch of tactical concerns). Bam, instant dynamism and unpredictability, forcing you to think and act on the fly.

    (Plus, it's not like you can't make use of the movement possibilities in single-player without being a full-on speedrunner. Until you memorise the levels and learn the most efficient routes, which would take a normal person a whole bunch of playthroughs, you're not really repeating a prederermined set of movements.)
    Last edited by MD!; 04-11-2011 at 07:27 AM.

  3. #23
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    Practically every multiplayer games forces the player to think and act on the fly. Its just a question of what do you decide to do based on the games style? Switch out dodge right with toss a flashbang...

  4. #24
    Network Hub MD!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wengart View Post
    Practically every multiplayer games forces the player to think and act on the fly. Its just a question of what do you decide to do based on the games style? Switch out dodge right with toss a flashbang...
    I think either I'm misunderstanding your point, or you misunderstood mine. I wasn't suggesting that 'thinking on the fly' was a unique feature of Quake. That was just a side-note in response to one specific comment. (I guess I didn't help my cause by failing to quote that comment.) It was this one:

    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalSignalX View Post
    FPS speed runs and Pro Starcraft can't really be categorized together imo. Technically you can lable them both competitive and requiring lots of practice, but the analogy fails immediately after. A quake run is pure and simple reflexive repetition and practice doing the exact same thing over and over and over hundreds, even thousands of times till you're shaving tenths of a second off each run. It's memorizing the maps and the exact precision key stroke/mouse slide to proceed.

    Starcraft, and even more so with its sequel today, is about much of that, but also tactics. About the other person. About choices based on certain conditions, about unit compositions, positioning, resource management and literally dozens more evolving elements that you don't have to contend with in speed runs.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalSignalX View Post
    Double obligatory:
    Slightly off topic, but every time I see that image I'm reminded of Might & Magic 6, and just how crazy complicated some of the dungeons in it are. It's an RPG and not an FPS, but the maps are just crazy. Whenever I replay it I always get lost in the Tomb Of Varn- just look at the map for it: http://www.the-spoiler.com/RPG/New.W....6.1/ds-tv.jpg

  6. #26
    Network Hub gundrea's Avatar
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    Quake and Doom didn't interest me as a kid. The FPS as a genre didn't attract me until Half-Life and the multiplayer Counterstrike. After Battlefield 1942 I lost interest once again. I don't miss the superfast quake arenas at all. One can hate both the past and the present.
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  7. #27
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Vexing Vision's Avatar
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    I don't play shooters a lot, but I love watching skilled Quake or Warsow players.

    Also, this video popped up in three different threads now, and I'm still loving every second of it. The Graphics On/Off is SO TRUE, and I've encountered "Shoot the Enemy to Kill Them"-hints in three or four other titles over the past year.

    I miss Marathon. I miss Quake. I want to play a HD remake of BLOOD really, really badly. I quite enjoyed Bulletstorm, but I don't get much fun out of things like Battlefield or Call of Duty, and maybe Halo's a good game but certainly not on controllers.

    Then again, I'm nearly as old-school as Wizardry but realize that I'm stuck in a niche-market, surrounded by titles that sell billions of copies which I have no interest in, so I can't begrudge the Big Ones not to produce the games I'd like to see anymore.

    *sighs*

    Graphics On/Off still cracks me up, though.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    If "getting better at their jobs" means "eliminating options for players," then yes, they're getting better at their jobs.

    Consequently, have you heard of the term "emergent gameplay?"
    Yes, but like I say, it's a happy accident. You can't design for emergent gameplay. It's a contradiction in terms. So games designers can't be blamed for not putting more of it in.

    It's like DX:HR - it doesn't have the weird game-breaking box-stacking physics stuff you could do in the first game. It does have artificial feeling areas where there are boxes near high walls specifically designed for you to do that.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Yes, but like I say, it's a happy accident. You can't design for emergent gameplay. It's a contradiction in terms. So games designers can't be blamed for not putting more of it in.

    It's like DX:HR - it doesn't have the weird game-breaking box-stacking physics stuff you could do in the first game. It does have artificial feeling areas where there are boxes near high walls specifically designed for you to do that.
    That's not strictly true. Designers can ensure emergent gameplay by using simulation elements instead of/in addition to rigid scripting and by ensuring that the game mechanics are complex and deep.

    That fact that nobody seems to bother anymore is just another example of the backward slide taken by the mass-market games industry recently.

  10. #30
    Network Hub MD!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    You can't design for emergent gameplay. It's a contradiction in terms.
    Might go into this in more detail tomorrow, but I just wanted to say, I disagree! If your definition of 'emergent gameplay' makes designing for emergent gameplay logically impossible, I reckon your definition is incorrect. Even if no specific case foreseen by the designers can count as 'emergence', you absolutely can design a game in such a way as to promote the possibility of emergence.

  11. #31
    Activated Node Dugular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    What, all games should become speed runs? It might just be that a lot of people don't really care about that. I watched the end of the video thinking "Wow, he's breezing through those maps in the blink of an eye. Is that fun?" Not sure about you, but cutting a game down to a few minutes of gameplay isn't fun for me.
    This isn't a comment about the rest of your post, just this first paragraph.

    The point about a speedrun isn't about playing a game for a shorter amount of time. In order to achieve an amazing speedrun, you have to play that level for a LOOOOONG amount of time :) So quite the opposite of what you said. I think the point that was trying to be made was that there is no reason to play a level in a modern day shooter over and over again like it was in the classic days, where quick routes and tricks could be found the longer you played.

    Now for my point on the general thread:
    What's happening here is simply that there are more options. Back then, we had Doom, Quake, Duke3d... not many more major titles. We had time to play through longer complicated levels. Nowadays, we have so many games to play that FPS games have evolved to be quicker streamlined experiences because that's what the modern gamer wants in order to move onto the next game. And even then he/she won't get through all the current releases.

    Also, we spent more time playing the single-player levels back then because online wasn't as easy of an option.

  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
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    The Serious Sam series hasn't stopped existing.

    The FPS genre remains diverse. EVEN more so than the Quake era.

    Sure, the 'blockbusters' revolve around more-or-less a corrdior series of QTEs. But the FPS genre now also offers us S.T.A.L.K.E.R. which, on its own and asides from similar games, makes both the video posted and the map comparison redundant, lazy and a weak basis for argument.

    The FPS genre has gotten stronger, more diverse, more interesting and more fun. The result of this are a few interactive movies dressed up as shooting galleries. If they didn't sell millions they wouldn;t be an issue.

    So, what have we learnt from all this?
    Only that there's no accounting for taste.
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  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus coldvvvave's Avatar
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    System Shock - 1994
    Quake - 1996


    What the hell happened? How could the genre degrade so quickly in just two years?

  14. #34
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
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    System Shock - 1994
    Quake - 1996
    Half-Life 1998
    System shock 2 - 1999
    Deus Ex - 2000
    Serious Sam - 2001

    It's not degradation, it's diversity

  15. #35
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    You forgot Doom before it.
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  16. #36
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    What can I say but "absolutely brillitant" about that video, its so true.

    The Arena shooter is dead no? if not on life support. One thing I loved about quake was duels!, why doesn't anyone duel anymore? 1 v 1 is really intense and rewarding.

    Basically whats happened in FPS is the same thats happened in MMORPG's is that care bears have taken over. Remove difficulty, protect the player, eliminate risk and you've got an linear experience. I don't think it is rose tinted looking back at these old games saying "oh they were shit really not as good as modern games". I mean if anyone played Quakeworld in its height the level of skill there at the top level was unsurpassed, people were literally inventing things back then (rocket jumping, bunny hopping) to get any little advantage. Ultima Online was a revolutionary game around the same time as quake which pioneered brave new ground but games went the Everquest route which is like feeding a baby.

  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baboonanza View Post
    That's not strictly true. Designers can ensure emergent gameplay by using simulation elements instead of/in addition to rigid scripting and by ensuring that the game mechanics are complex and deep.
    This.

    To use a non-FPS example, Dwarf Fortress is pretty much all emergent gameplay, as is Minecraft. You most certainly can plan for it: You just need a system in place and a ruleset that doesn't lock a player into one mode of thinking.

    One of the issues of a lot of modern RPGs - and here's something Wizardry might actually agree with me on - is that, sometimes, you're not simulating what you'd do in some situation, but second-guessing what the developer planned for you to do in that situation, because said developer put barriers in place against most everything else. Y'know, just in case you missed the good writing s/he set up. This isn't necessarily a bad thing - it's hard to have a cohesive storyline if you don't set up some barriers - but games cluster in fads, and if you've not mind-melded with the developer, it can knock you clear out of immersion.

    Similarly, one problem with today's corridor-shooters is that you're practically watching a movie with the director sitting to your left and the movie's biggest fan sitting to your right, each yelling at you, "hey, watch this scene! It's so awesome! Wait, where are you going? YOU CAN'T GO TO THE BATHROOM! YOU'LL MISS THE NEXT SCENE! Freddy, get the eye-clamps, I'll hold him down."
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  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexing Vision View Post
    I miss Marathon. I miss Quake.
    I would love a new Marathon game so much! Of course, they'd probably just make it an FPS.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    One of the issues of a lot of modern RPGs - and here's something Wizardry might actually agree with me on - is that, sometimes, you're not simulating what you'd do in some situation, but second-guessing what the developer planned for you to do in that situation, because said developer put barriers in place against most everything else. Y'know, just in case you missed the good writing s/he set up. This isn't necessarily a bad thing - it's hard to have a cohesive storyline if you don't set up some barriers - but games cluster in fads, and if you've not mind-melded with the developer, it can knock you clear out of immersion.
    Of course. Instead of just handing over a world together with a set of rules, modern games are handing over developer guided "experiences". For the player, you are no longer exploring a game's world using a bunch of rules and mechanics, you are experiencing exactly what the developer wants you to experience.

    The Elder Scrolls, incidentally, no matter how much I think the modern iterations suck, is one of the few AAA game series that still does things the old way, but unfortunately with increasingly less rules for you to play with.

  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Of course. Instead of just handing over a world together with a set of rules, modern games are handing over developer guided "experiences". For the player, you are no longer exploring a game's world using a bunch of rules and mechanics, you are experiencing exactly what the developer wants you to experience.
    Again, I say that's not a bad thing, per se: "Make your own story" sandboxes simply cannot provide the quality of storyboard that scripted scenes can. I will always prefer BioWare over Bethesda, LARGE HAM notwithstanding. But you do lose that freedom.

    If you ask me, "experiences" are attempts at simulating the spirit of DM'd RPing, and sandboxes are attempts at simulating the mechanics of DM'd RPing. Two equally flawed visions towards an unattainable goal.
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