Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 51 of 51
  1. #41
    Network Hub
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    408
    It works well until you run into your first mage, lich, beholder, illythid or other nasty thing. Those often put up protection from magic weapons, stoneskin or other protection spells so your melee fighters are fairly useless. Couple that with spells like dire charm, petrification or imprisonment, and simply 'hit it until it's dead' is no longer an option, so you have to counter with your own magic users (dispel magic, spell piercing etc.). Especially later in the game fights can become extremely tactical, though in my opinion BG2 and especially Throne of Bhaal suffers from 'linear warriors, quadratic wizards'. The sheer game breaking potential of a wizard (or even worse, a cleric/wizard multiclass) can make a lot of encounters a joke if you now what you are doing and exploit things like spell triggers and contingency spells to their fullest potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    You really haven't played it.
    I guess that's the short version of what I just wrote. :D
    Last edited by Subatomic; 12-11-2011 at 07:18 PM.

  2. #42
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,994
    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Really? Because I'm pretty sure hit-it-with-melee-weapon-until-it-stops-moving worked well on 99% of the enemies.
    You really haven't played it.

  3. #43
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,069
    Quote Originally Posted by Subatomic View Post
    It works well until you run into your first mage, lich, beholder, illythid or other nasty thing. Those often put up protection from magic weapons, stoneskin or other protection spells so your melee fighters are fairly useless.
    If it's Protection from Magic Weapons, you just use a non-magic weapon. If it's Mantle and derivatives, only the 9th level version offers full protection but all of them can be simply waited out as they last measly 4 rounds. Stoneskin grants you one skin every 2 caster levels, so a 20th level mage will have 10 of them; enough to hold a 5 attacks per round Fighter at bay for two rounds. This is about as far as anti-Fighter defenses go in Baldur's Gate 2 - believe it or not, but almost all other defensive spells are used to protect yourself from magic, not melee.

    Of course due to unique way the BG series interprets DnD mechanics, +x elemental damage on weapons passes through Stoneskin. With several attacks per round and the fact that each hit interrupts a cast no matter what, you can say Stoneskins are alltogether useless; they just make the fight longer because you need to hack your way through them. But they don't affect the outcome.

    As for "nasty things" and mind control/status spells, this applies to everyone, Fighter or Mage alike, and is solved with magical items and saving throws, occassionally a potion or scroll(hi Kangaxx). Furthermore, said "nasty things" usually have good saving throws or magic resistance, and at the same time no "melee resistance" to speak of.

    I soloed the game with a F/M/T once(actually more than once but whatever) and killed significant majority of enemies in BG2 and ToB with my sword simply because it was easiest and fastest way of doing things. The occassional spell I casted was usually a summon for a better crowd control.

    So I still can't for the life of me think of why would anyone consider the game tactical.

  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,994
    No one said it was tactical...

    even though it is more tactical than 99% of RPGs.

  5. #45
    Network Hub
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    408
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    No one said it was tactical...

    even though it is more tactical than 99% of RPGs.
    Actually, I did. Shame on me I guess.

    The thing with BG is, it's combat system is easily exploitable if you know what you're doing and can recite the effects of DnD's spells in your sleep. If you don't know, your first higher level magic using enemy will be a real challenge until you figure out how to best counter their protections and offensive abilities. If you know what every enemy is going to do and abuse ability combos, engine glitches and limitations though, most fights become a joke. Like casting Magic Resistance on a dragon to actually lower it's magic resistance without it becoming hostile, then casting Feeblmind to turn it into a (gargantuan and scaly) drooling vegetable - though I think that little trick was changed in one of the unofficial fix packs.
    Last edited by Subatomic; 12-11-2011 at 08:01 PM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Subatomic View Post
    Actually, I did. Shame on me I guess.

    The thing with BG is, it's combat system is easily exploitable if you know what you're doing and can recite the effects of DnD's spells in your sleep. If you don't know, your first higher level magic using enemy will be a real challenge until you figure out how to best counter their protections and offensive abilities. If you know what every enemy is going to do and abuse ability combos, engine glitches and limitations though, most fights become a joke. Like casting Magic Resistance on a dragon to actually lower it's magic resistance without it becoming hostile, then casting Feeblmind to turn it into a (gargantuan and scaly) drooling vegetable - though I think that little trick was changed in one of the unofficial fix packs.
    Baldur's Gate can be broken very easily. That is why I have gotten the most fun out of the game by installing mods that increase the encounter difficulty (Ascension, Sword coast stratagems, etc...) and also making a point of sleeping as little as possible so I don't always use the same abilities. This really forces you to meta-game, and try and get the utmost out of every single ability and item you have. D&D (until 4th edition) has always been an incredibly versatile and broken system that rewards creativity.

    Back to the topic though: In most action-oriented rpgs such as Oblivion, or the Mass Effect series, I find difficulty gets in the way of enjoyment. These games are at their best when encounters are somewhat challenging but don't kill the mood and story. Generally, these games want you to feel like a bad-ass action hero all the time, and extreme difficulty dispels that illusion.
    It's a different story with games like Baldur's Gate, Fallout and to a lesser extent, the first Dragon-Age. Because the focus is on small scale tactics, and not immersion, overcoming a difficult fight is so much more rewarding.

  7. #47
    Network Hub
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    408
    Quote Originally Posted by Snargelfargen View Post
    Back to the topic though: In most action-oriented rpgs such as Oblivion, or the Mass Effect series, I find difficulty gets in the way of enjoyment. These games are at their best when encounters are somewhat challenging but don't kill the mood and story. Generally, these games want you to feel like a bad-ass action hero all the time, and extreme difficulty dispels that illusion.
    It's a different story with games like Baldur's Gate, Fallout and to a lesser extent, the first Dragon-Age. Because the focus is on small scale tactics, and not immersion, overcoming a difficult fight is so much more rewarding.
    Excellent point. Baldur's Gate and other games like it often force you to experiment with the combat choices you are given, giving the more difficult fights a puzzle-like feel to it. The more action-y games like ME on the other hand a more focussed on quick reactions and things like aiming skills in their combat. In my experience, I get much less frustrated by failure in the former kind of games than in the latter - I just haven't figured out the right combination of puzzle pieces instead of "I suck at aiming".

  8. #48
    Obscure Node
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4
    Going through Icewind Dale 1 again recently. I just found out how incredibly broken ranged combat can be. My team of shooty men and women gun their ways through most challenges without a sweat. My guys have gone through more ammo than I have in most fpses. For harder encounters a simple web is sufficient. For even harder encounters my cleric can chain buff my guys to hilariously strong levels. It's rather repetitive.

  9. #49
    Lesser Hivemind Node
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    891
    I gotta say that I agree with the OP - and i suggested a similar thing a while back.

    I don't dislike the combat, but I do find that it's just too repetitive. It's like they took the Lord of the Rings movies, and added 10 minute fight scenes every 5 minutes to pad them out to 80 hours each. They could be the coolest fight scenes in the world, but after a while you're fed up of seeing orcs killed.

    Clearly, some RPGs do it much better than others. And some are much worse. (JRPGs like Final Fantasy - 10 random encounters while walking down a corridor in a small town house!).

    Gaming is often about learning systems and learning to apply things... so a good game introduces new systems and gives you a time to learn them, and then master them, but then it introduces something new. Too many RPGs get you to repeat the same system over and over again.

    I would also like a "skip filler battles" option in the menus. You'd play the same game at the same difficulty, but 90% of the random encounters and fillers would be skipped, though still granting you the XP. So you'd get boss battles, and important storyline battles, and a small spattering of filler battles to introduce new enemies and provide some variation. But not enough to get boring.

  10. #50
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,994
    Quote Originally Posted by BillButNotBen View Post
    I would also like a "skip filler battles" option in the menus. You'd play the same game at the same difficulty, but 90% of the random encounters and fillers would be skipped, though still granting you the XP. So you'd get boss battles, and important storyline battles, and a small spattering of filler battles to introduce new enemies and provide some variation. But not enough to get boring.
    That's been done in a number of RPGs. It's called auto-resolve.

  11. #51
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Vienna, Austria
    Posts
    6,184
    I think the system is what kept me from enjoying BG thoroughly. It was apparently enough to survive the game to the end story of the main game, but by god, I do not like combat systems like DnD's. Maybe I just dont like RPG combat systems at all, that involve dice in any way.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •