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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    When you design a total failure like Brink, you shouldn't pretend you're a good game designer. Paul "Brink" Wedgewood thinks he has a lot of wisdom to share.
    Wedgewood is also responsible for Quake Wars and Wolf: ET, two of the most cerebral competitive fps' ever made. Splash Damage is certainly one of the best independent game studios out there.

  2. #42
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Also, I like the design. Also, it is structurally sound, in my opinion. I would love to meet the man behind it.

    This sentence alone makes all of your reasons invalid. Next time, say "In My Opinion", and save yourself the hassle. Or not and go be depressed somewhere else.
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  3. #43
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane View Post
    Wedgewood is also responsible for Quake Wars and Wolf: ET, two of the most cerebral competitive fps' ever made. Splash Damage is certainly one of the best independent game studios out there.
    ET:QW had major issues with framerate and connection drops, not to mention crashes. I have 8800 GTS, Core2Duo E6750, 2GB RAM which should be more than enough for it. Yet no amount of tweaking, not even reducing detail to minimum would make the game run fluid.
    The game had okay design, but also a fair share of broken stuff. Like extremely fast vehicles with no lag compensation (Icarus was very hard to hit not because of player skill), basically untouchable air vehicles (forget about deployables), broken vehicle model (they boasted you'd be able to do trickjumps.... hah. Remember the husky ramp on Valley ?).

    As for W:ET, yes, it was good but let's not foget
    a) it was a commercial failure converted into a PR stunt. A failed project by their own admission, even if someone else was meant to do the single player portion (I believe)
    b) You don't give enough credit to id Software and Nerve. RTCW was a very solid game, it had the same gunplay and won many game of the year awards.

    I wouldn't say Enemy Territory games were stellar, they had many issues ("SD's trademark lack of polish" - shirosae). And Brink is a turn for the worse. I actually took the time to check the list of employees and guess what ? People who worked on Quake 3 Fortress, Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, Quake Wars are a small fraction of Splash Damage. Last time I checked. The company is now around 60 people, it has more console developers and designers than it ever had PC developers.

    Fan loyalty for loyalty's sake isn't worth it. They used to make decent games, they no longer do. The bigger games you make the less creative freedom you have, and SD is now very big. I have much more interest in Natural Selection 2, being made by 5 people, than SD's next game. At least it looks like a game (rather than a movie) and there's abundance of gameplay footage. Since the days of ET:QW SD has been very shy when it comes to showing gameplay footage. Turns out they have reasons to be afraid.
    Last edited by b0rsuk; 22-11-2011 at 03:22 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    When you design a total failure like Brink, you shouldn't pretend you're a good game designer. Paul "Brink" Wedgewood thinks he has a lot of wisdom to share.
    Exactly this.

    I can't take Tim Schafer seriously after he designed that huge flop, Psychonauts. Chris Avellone can fuck off with his bloody Planescape: Torment. And don't get me started on Looking Glass and their succession of commercial failures that led to the company closing down.

    [Not that Brink is on par with those games, but you need more than 'it didn't sell well' to justify bad design]

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane View Post
    Wedgewood is also responsible for Quake Wars and Wolf: ET, two of the most cerebral competitive fps' ever made. Splash Damage is certainly one of the best independent game studios out there.
    Quake wars flopped and Wolf:et was pretty much rtcw with a few more bells and whistles.
    In fact rtcw had the best muliplayer out of all those titles and it wasn't made by Splash Damage. Nerve software made the muliplayer component for RTCW but have been porting the games to consoles instead of making them now-a-days.

    The RTCW multi-player is pretty much evident in every splash damage game and it annoys the hell out of me that Spash damage get the credit for that style of gameplay. When in fact, it was done better in an older title in RTCW.


    Rant over and back on topic:

    Brink has some good things going for it, the Art direction is fantastic...........Thats all I got

    My main problem is the Weapons, they feel like I am firing a pea shooter and this is in every game made by Spash Damage. It really puts me off buying any game I see there name on :(

  6. #46
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Exactly this.

    I can't take Tim Schafer seriously after he designed that huge flop, Psychonauts. Chris Avellone can fuck off with his bloody Planescape: Torment. And don't get me started on Looking Glass and their succession of commercial failures that led to the company closing down.
    You're trying to be sarcastic. So which is the major success of Paul "Brink" Wedgewood ? W:ET is heavily based on Return To Castle Wolfenstein, which was named game of the year by many magazines. Quake 3 Fortress, a mod based on Q1 Team Fortress with few changes, was only moderately successful especially compared to Team Fortress Classic. ET:QW had many showstopping technical issues... but it was a success compared to Brink.

    [Not that Brink is on par with those games, but you need more than 'it didn't sell well' to justify bad design]
    Oh, but Brink did sell well ! 256 000 on PC alone, it made it into top 10 of Q1 2011.
    http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/s...es...-%28PC%29

    It only hasn't managed to keep those players. The forums were full of angry threads of disenchanted people. Chief complaints were: a) people were misled by preview videos into thinking the game would have lots of free running and parkour. Maps turned out to be choke points SD-style. b) veterans/pc players were misled into thinking gunplay would be like in Enemy Territory games. Rahdo was hanging around tournament websites saying Brink will pretty much be the next Enemy Territory game. But weapons are very inaccurate. c) People were misled into thinking the game would have a proper single player rather than glorified bot match with cutscenes d) stupid bots e) defense-biased maps resulted in full holds f) bad body type balance. Few reasons to play mediums and practicaly none to play heavies. Heavies, with more HP, felt fragile. Weapons didn't actually deal more damage than smg's. g) low weapon diversity. Even RPS said they're mostly dakka-dakka-dakka type machineguns. h) one largely useless class (Operative) which was a problem considering the game had 4. So it ended up being 3 classes.
    I don't even bring up bugs. Brink had some pretty bad ones, but players would be ready to forgive them if the base game was interesting. Sure enough, bugs were fixed pretty soon. But that wasn't the real problem.

    Check out this graph of Brink playerbase over time:
    www.splashdamage.com/forums/showthread.php/31292-Is-this-game-dead-already?p=383854&viewfull=1#post383854
    http://steamgraph.burstpixel.net/ind...d=22350&from=0

    I actually like a couple of things about Brink. Sound (not music - forgettable, eww generic war movie) is hands down best among all SD games. Art direction and style is distinct and likeable. Incidentally, both are areas where ET:QW was very lacking (yes, they managed to make often bizarre and not even humanoid Strogg look boring and standarized).
    Last edited by b0rsuk; 22-11-2011 at 08:55 PM.

  7. #47
    Lesser Hivemind Node TailSwallower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archonsod View Post
    Pretty sure it's one of the main complaints levelled at the GTA series as a whole.
    People call it a murder simulator, sure, but what's the difference between shooting an innocent woman in the face, and shooting an innocent man in the face? Innocence is innocence and virtual murder is virtual murder.

    Now, if we're talking about non-innocent men and women, as in actual combatants, then I also don't see what the issue is. Your point seems totally sexist - not saying you're sexist, but anyone who thinks that shooting a woman in the face is any worse than shooting a man in the face is sexist. I think any explanation of why it is worse would come down to women being more fragile or unable to deal with combat situations, etc - as in, a sexist argument.

    Now, if there was a misogynistic game where you play a man going around shooting women and throwing around derogatory terms then hell yes, condemn the shit out of it, but otherwise I'm all for equal opportunity death and death-dealing in my games.
    If someone can offer me a compelling argument as to why I'm wrong (an argument that boils down to more than "She should be in the kitchen, not on the battlefield") then I'm happy to reconsider my views.

    So yeah, more gender equality and less stereotyping in general in games... And movies, and TV shows, and culture in general.
    weekendwarrio.rs - We've got more games than time...

  8. #48
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post

    Oh, but Brink did sell well ! 256 000 on PC alone, it made it into top 10 of Q1 2011.
    http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/s...es...-%28PC%29
    .
    No way. And that figure claims to be Steam only for two months. Brink had a maximum of 15k concurrent players and then dropped like a rock. There's absolutely no chance it managed to sell 256k copies in two months. I doubt even Tripwire's formula of estimating sales applies for Brink.

  9. #49
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    You forget that brink had a lot of hype going for it. it was pimped like a console release. I think those figures are acurate.
    - Tom De Roeck.

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    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  10. #50
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    I have to say though many people.criticising.it especially in reviews i dont think played it much. It has lots of freerunning and it has lots of areas around the chokepoints. The guns are a.little lacking but since after awile most multiplayer fps people use the same.guns its.not.to bad. I agree its a.bit to late for.it to be saved though whice.is a shame

  11. #51
    Activated Node Gnoupi's Avatar
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    I doubt it will be saved as well, unless they go really large with a big price drop, or F2P model.
    It's a shame, I really liked the game.

    There were some annoyances for sure, being ATI owner, I had to play with console settings to actually get a playable framerate.
    Some maps also have mistakes, like the beginning of container city, typically, which can cause security to be locked in their own spawn place, or the infirmary in the prison (huge "back and forth" chokepoint) (Well, also the beginning of this map, if resistance is not fast enough).

    But other than that, I don't feel that the map design was "so awful that no one likes it". Other maps had alternative paths to the objectives, and "SMART" alternative paths.

    As a light character, I have to say I really enjoyed the SMART system, and the map design. Lot of occasions for me to jump around, surprise defenders from the back, etc. The weapons in this game require mostly to be able to follow the enemy with the machine gun, and you can really jump your way around walls, to manage to kill someone who should have outlived you.


    But despite qualities and the fact that not everyone hated the game, it's too late. They underestimated the lifetime of a multiplayer game, without the "extra multiplayer support". They added personal stats only months later, and they are adding actual "pro" options only now. They probably believed that they had time for that, from their previous experiences. But the truth is, the game was already dying dying on PC by the time their first map pack released, and it's fully dead now. So it's a bit pointless to bring a big multiplayer update right now.

    Pity.

  12. #52
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    steam reports at least less than 417 peak players for brink (only estimating this because it has fallen off the list of top games by current player count. even simcity 4 deluxe is beating brink.)

    well, i think the damage has been done and splash damage has shot themselves in the foot so well they've also taken their lower leg with it. not even weird-looking characters and that halfway semblance of a story could save it from being completely marred by the terrible meatgrinder gameplay. the way the game was so safety edged into dullness didn't help. farewell, brink, you were a fucking snooze.
    Last edited by acidtestportfolio; 23-11-2011 at 03:09 PM.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKicksalot View Post
    No way. And that figure claims to be Steam only for two months. Brink had a maximum of 15k concurrent players and then dropped like a rock. There's absolutely no chance it managed to sell 256k copies in two months. I doubt even Tripwire's formula of estimating sales applies for Brink.
    Some companys like Game in the uk bought a lot of units to ensure it wasn't on steam (as in being able to buy it on steam). Hell you can get it for under 10 in most Game stores.

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    I enjoyed it quite a lot at launch. But... haven't touched it since.

  15. #55
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoupi View Post
    I doubt it will be saved as well,
    It it's saved, it will be a minor miracle. And I don't demand much, I would be impressed if the game made it back into Steam's top 100 played games. I don't think even making it free to play would save it, there are better free games. TF2 isn't so popular because of how it looks. Tribes: Ascend is in closed beta, and it should be in open beta before long.

  16. #56
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    If they made a substantial re-release and called it Brink 1.5, and not just 'here's a patch that fixes some stuff... please come back' it might generate some buzz. If they turned it into a genuinely great product, some people would play it and through word of mouth it would spread that the game is now good. If there was any DLC, that should all be given free and made part of the base product. DLC puts people off top tier games.

    But in reality, probably nothing can help. It's tainted. Even Brink 2 would be met with suspicion.

  17. #57
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus neema_t's Avatar
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    I was considering getting Brink until the free weekend. I'd played my brother's PS3 copy a while ago and thought it was alright, pretty mediocre but doable, then the free weekend... Well, let's put it this way. I joined an online game which was mostly populated by bots, but the game was fine. Then I pressed esc to remap some controls, and guess what? I couldn't resume the game because it must have unmapped all the keys, or at least just esc. One ctrl-alt-del later and I was uninstalling a game that was still free to play for the next two days. Seriously, though, if you're trying to promote a game through a free weekend, at least make sure people actually can play it. They say there's no such thing as bad publicity, I think Brink is a perfect example of how wrong that statement can be.


    Oh and from what I played of the PS3 version, all I could see was a massive wasted opportunity to combine Mirror's Edge with a manshoot; the SMART thing had such limited use, especially as only one class of player could use it and that class wasn't available at the start. Given how much buzz there was around the parkour aspect you would've thought you could play as a light type from the start, but it's as if the game was designed so that it was a really minor aspect. Fair enough if they had some other awesome mechanic to highlight, but they didn't, they didn't do a single thing better than Modern Battleduty Warfield of Honour 4 except the customisation of your character, and how many people bought the game for that? Still, from what I played, I thought it would be worth about 5 if it was that cheap from the start. Problem is, by the time it got that cheap, no one was playing it, and no one was buying it because no one was playing it, and as it's online-only (ok, it has offline modes, but what's the point if it's just pretend online?), that's kind of a dealbreaker.
    Last edited by neema_t; 23-11-2011 at 10:38 PM.

  18. #58
    Lesser Hivemind Node Scumbag's Avatar
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    And so the second free weekend is here. I thought I'd give it a shot... and it wont even download.
    Gotta give them credit though, this has had a few attempts to kickstart. More then some games get.

  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    Forget Brink. Save whatever reputation you have left, Splash Damage, and don't make a free weekend. Less bad word of mouth. 5 extra sales is not worth the reputation loss. The game still has bad gameplay design, interface, and ugly bugs (invisible enemies etc). I have a feeling Splash Damage will change its name.
    Last edited by b0rsuk; 02-12-2011 at 12:09 AM.

  20. #60
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    Short answer no. Long answer: buggy release+bad reviews+multiplayer (as in, needs people to be successful) =failure
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    Last edited by xxx; 10-12-2011 at 04:44 PM.

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