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  1. #121
    Lesser Hivemind Node DigitalSignalX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkFenix View Post
    Archery is quite simply brokenly overpowered. ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    Yes, yes it is. ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    ... Also, I haven't broken the game, I bumped up the difficulty to Master ... I find that quite fun and unbroken.
    Thing is, your first post was agreeing that archery is broken, and then showing how you abused the game to make archery broken. My point was, archery *isn't* broken. Your second post shows you've even managed to balance archery despite the abuse o.O
    Last edited by DigitalSignalX; 26-11-2011 at 02:29 AM.
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  2. #122
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    I'll try to clarify.

    Yes I agree that archery is brokenly overpowered, especially when combined with the crafting skills. Even if you don't do any recursive enchanting and potion making but simply use the enchanter's elixirs and fortify alchemy gear you find as you go through the world, make one set of crafting gear and craft yourself an archery set and a bow, you can easily end up with weapons close to the 300 damage range with +50 damage enchants and +100 poisons. Marksman pots can boost that to the double. Add in how easy it is to get sneak attacks with bows and the 30% critical strike chance and you can take over half the health off an Ancient Dragon before it even sees you. You can 1-shot Dragon Priests.

    Yes I agree I pushed the game farther than it's sensible to do, but to be clear, I made a set of 4x +22% alchemy gear and used that to make enchanting and blacksmithing pots to improve the gear I can make (which again isn't the best you can learn to craft). I already had +20% alchemy pieces and +25% enchanting pots that I'd looted off mobs and found in dungeons. This isn't something that's difficult or exploity to do but something the game presents and supports very clearly.

    When the "fix" is to raise the difficulty to max and use a weapon you got 50 levels ago, that you choose to not add the benefits of 2/3 of your crafting skills on, there's a balance problem.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    I'll try to clarify.

    Yes I agree that archery is brokenly overpowered, especially when combined with the crafting skills. Even if you don't do any recursive enchanting and potion making but simply use the enchanter's elixirs and fortify alchemy gear you find as you go through the world, make one set of crafting gear and craft yourself an archery set and a bow, you can easily end up with weapons close to the 300 damage range with +50 damage enchants and +100 poisons. Marksman pots can boost that to the double. Add in how easy it is to get sneak attacks with bows and the 30% critical strike chance and you can take over half the health off an Ancient Dragon before it even sees you. You can 1-shot Dragon Priests.

    Yes I agree I pushed the game farther than it's sensible to do, but to be clear, I made a set of 4x +22% alchemy gear and used that to make enchanting and blacksmithing pots to improve the gear I can make (which again isn't the best you can learn to craft). I already had +20% alchemy pieces and +25% enchanting pots that I'd looted off mobs and found in dungeons. This isn't something that's difficult or exploity to do but something the game presents and supports very clearly.

    When the "fix" is to raise the difficulty to max and use a weapon you got 50 levels ago, that you choose to not add the benefits of 2/3 of your crafting skills on, there's a balance problem.
    So you're saying that if you abuse crafting skills to abuse other crafting skills you can break the gameplay in your solo-experience. Well done. The fix is pretty simple to me; don't abuse the crafting skills just because you can.

  4. #124
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    I'm not doing that though, I've said that quite clearly and more than once. However, I do think there's a serious game design problem when players have to give themselves severe artificial constraints because they decided to level up crafting professions, especially in an RPG where developing and improving your character is such a big part of the game.

  5. #125
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    Morrowind had broken alchemy
    Skyrim has broken enchanting

    As said an easy fix show some self restraint and don't abuse the mechanics so much.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    I'm not doing that though, I've said that quite clearly and more than once. However, I do think there's a serious game design problem when players have to give themselves severe artificial constraints because they decided to level up crafting professions, especially in an RPG where developing and improving your character is such a big part of the game.
    It's only a problem if you stack them though. A single ring with a good bow damage is not going to be a problem. Making a full set of +30% (or however much is max) just because you can (and it is "can" because you could easily not put on the +smithing enchants and not use the potions to get to the absolute max) is the definition of ruining the game for yourself.

    I have just about maxed smithing and enchanting on my level 45 thief, and smithed and enchanted gear for myself throughout the game, and playing on the 2nd highest difficulty I have plenty of challenging fights.

    Talking about balance in a strictly single-player game, where there is literally no reason why you would max your character to gamebreaking levels, is completely pointless. You might as well argue about why godmode cheats exists in Doom, since they obviously break the game when you use them.

  7. #127
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    @psyk:
    So because Morrowind had a similar problem they somehow cancel out?

    @Bristoff:
    The idea that it's the player's job to balance game difficulty and the skills system is frankly laughable. Are you really saying you don't see a problem with having to purposefully gimp your character and not use the skills you've spent time training and spent perks on, on the hardest difficulty of the game?

    Godmode is a cheat, not an intended way to play the game. It's not like you have to use console commands to craft and enchant silly weapons and potions in Skyrim and as I said above you don't have to go back and forth between them to make special gear, you can just use the materials and equipment the game will give you as you play it and end up with the same net result. I've had tons of fortify alchemy, smithing and enchanting equipment and potions drop while playing.

  8. #128
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    Yes. I'm sure more people would like the choice of being able to abuse the mechanics than having them locked at some set lvl.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    @Bristoff:
    The idea that it's the player's job to balance game difficulty and the skills system is frankly laughable. Are you really saying you don't see a problem with having to purposefully gimp your character and not use the skills you've spent time training and spent perks on, on the hardest difficulty of the game?

    Godmode is a cheat, not an intended way to play the game. It's not like you have to use console commands to craft and enchant silly weapons and potions in Skyrim and as I said above you don't have to go back and forth between them to make special gear, you can just use the materials and equipment the game will give you as you play it and end up with the same net result. I've had tons of fortify alchemy, smithing and enchanting equipment and potions drop while playing.
    I'm not saying it's the player's job to balance the game. I'm saying that using unintended crafting stacking to create gamebreaking imbalanced items and then bitching about breaking said game is beyond retarded.

    It's clearly not intended from the developers side that you should be able to stack stuff so you can one-shot ancient dragons on master difficulty, it's a side-effect of various features of the game that when combined to the point of ridiculousness ruins the game experience. I'm saying, if you didn't do this intentionally yourself (whether to actually one-shot dragons, or to see if you could break the game) you wouldn't be complaining about this problem in the first place.

    Personally I think that Bethesda can't be bothered with so-called balancing on this level in their games because it simply doesn't matter, and for the small audience who do get offended when stuff they do to break the game isn't picked up during bughunting or patched in immediately, there's always a billion modders that does it for them.

    On a side-note I'm whining about people whining because on all the gaming forums I frequent, in all the Skyrim threads that exists, there inevitably are people bitching about the game being too easy and Bethesda catering to the retard console-audience, when it's clearly just bitter people ruining their own game experience.
    Last edited by Bristoff; 26-11-2011 at 03:44 PM.

  10. #130
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    If it's unintended then why are there fortify effects for the crafting skills in the first place? I don't think an entire dev studio with years spent thinking about their game systems couldn't figure out what happens if you level up multiple crafting skills on one character.

    If you don't mind then that's fine, but I know I'm not alone in thinking that figuring out ways to improve your character is an important part of playing RPGs. If you suddenly run into a wall where you have to stop using your skills in order not to make the game boring then that's a problem. I want to be rewarded for my efforts and use of game mechanics, not punished.

    Lumping me in with the "lol consoletards" crowd because I pointed out an absurdity is insulting and having two pages of people essentially saying I'm stupid for breaking my own game through stacking crafting skills, when I said in the very first post I made on the topic that I'm not actually using weapons crafted that way, is baffling, so pardon me if I'm being overly defensive here.

    Perhaps it's worth mentioning that this hasn't soured my opinions on Skyrim as a whole. It's one of my favourite games this year, certainly the game I've spent the most time with and I'm still enjoying it a lot. I just wish I hadn't wasted perk points on skills I can't use lest I trivialise the game.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristoff View Post
    I'm not saying it's the player's job to balance the game. I'm saying that using unintended crafting stacking to create gamebreaking imbalanced items and then bitching about breaking said game is beyond retarded.
    In a sense though it always is. I'm not just being contrarian here, in bullet storm games the player tries hard over and over to learn how to not die. They literally balance themselves to the game.

    In Mass Effect etc. I always end up collecting special potions or abilities I forget to use until it becomes hard.

    So while it's off topic really, it's interesting that a lot of games actually do require the player action to actively balance them to make them fun. And not just by refusing to use broken parts as in bethesda games.

  12. #132
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    I'm actually looking forward to being overpowered. I plan to max out every skill and it'll be nice to be a god when I finally reach there.
    For now, I'm a stealthy archer battlemage alchemist thief. I balanced my Nord character quite nicely - off the top of my head, 35 destruction, 38 one-handed, 29 block, 30something light armour, 42 archery, 42 speech (fortified), 32 alchemy, 50 lockpicking. I make extensive use of potions and poisons. Every other skill I only use occasionally and many are under 20. For my character I feel the difficulty is appropriate - challenging, but not really hard if I pay attention.

    I just wish the inventory was easier to use, it's a nightmare to juggle all those potions.

  13. #133
    Lesser Hivemind Node Keep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    I want to be rewarded for my efforts and use of game mechanics, not punished.
    You are rewarded: in the game you become very powerful.

  14. #134
    Lesser Hivemind Node DigitalSignalX's Avatar
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    Apologies skalpadda, my intent wasn't to spark any insulting or inflammatory comments. I inferred, perhaps incorrectly, that you were dissatisfied at being forced to use a hunting bow at higher levels on master difficulty in order to balance archery. What I intended to show was that if you did not use enchanting specifically toward the goal of increasing crafting / further enchanting potential, that using dropped items alone for bonus to enhancement (as we both have done also) provides a decently balanced experience. I offered my own bow as proof, and even still, I one shot most opponents from sneak, but if I get ambushed or vs. dragon priests / arch dragons, it's still quite a fight that I can (and have) died from even on normal difficulty.

    I think we both agree the potential to abuse it greatly is there, and should not be - but we differ on how much each of us felt was necessary to experiment with on our own character. c'est la vie.
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  15. #135
    Lesser Hivemind Node Drinking with Skeletons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alez View Post
    Anyone actually uses the master destruction spells? I simply don't understand why they added them. Can a character reliably use them or just screw around and kill rabbits and crabs?
    You can reliably use them, but they tend to be situational.

    Firestorm is easily the worst, since it's a single burst of damage centered on your character. It requires enemies to be basically on top of you to get the full effect, which is an extremely dicey situation given the charge time, and then doesn't really do enough damage to justify that charge (there's never a situation where the AoE makes up for being barely better than Incinerate). Maxed out SPOILER:Slow Time is your friend, as it will give you the chance to use it. Still, you're probably better off with spamming Dual-Cast Incinerate. I'm OK with this spell kind of sucking, since Fire is overall the best element in the game on a damage vs. magicka vs. enemy resistance basis.

    Blizzard is better, since it's both AoE and DoT. You can use SPOILER Ice Form to incapacitate multiple enemies, then cast the spell. The initial hit will break the Shout's effect, but they will start taking damage from that moment on and will be stuck in a rising animation momentarily. This spell's big problem is that a significant number of enemies are resistant or immune to ice: Nords, Trolls, Ice Wraiths, Dwarven Constructs, Frost Atronachs, and I believe Draugr (Deathlords seem to take almost no damage from the spell). Dragons are also very difficult to deal with, as there aren't any methods that I'm aware of to get them to hold still long enough for the spell to be worth using.

    Now Lightningstorm is a great spell. You can easily use a Storm Atronach (or two, if you're a skilled conjurer) to tank and then just hose a room down. If you've invested in Enchanting, you can make this spell ludicrously magicka-efficient. I've found using it to bring down circling dragons to be very effective, even against Elder Dragons, and in fact I sometimes choose not to use it against dragons simply because it feels kind of cheap. Despite the fact that it's a lightning spell, you don't want to use this against magic users without somehow incapacitating them first; even with summoned creatures, mages tend to be very good at blasting you while you charge up.

    Hope this helps! I'm personally hoping that they will add in some new Perks in upcoming DLC. A second point in Master Destruction that cuts the charge time by 50% or more would make these spells more worthwhile, but they aren't unsalvageable even now.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drinking with Skeletons View Post
    Hope this helps!
    Thanks for the long reply, it does help in the sense that i now know you could actually use them. I'll still stick to the boring stun lock of the incinerate though.

    2 questions though:
    1. What's the point of ice or lightning spells other than...visual variation to break the monotony?
    -Ice spells should be used against melee enemies but either barely slow them down or doesn't last long enough to matter. You can stun lock them anyway with dual casting. Not moving at all is much better than moving slower.
    -Lightning is supposed to be good against mana users, draining them of it but like with ice, that becomes less important once the enemy is stun locked and can't even cast spells no matter how much mana he might have.

    From what i've seen, unless the enemy is fire immune, there is no reason to switch to other spells.

    2. What's the difference between fire and lightning astronach?
    Other than the obvious immunity to their element, i see no reason why one is better than the other. The storm astronach is considered expert i think, but i don't see why it's not on the same level.
    They seem to have the same damage and die just as easily.

    I'm using flame astronach because if it lights the enemy on fire, maybe i get extra damage from my own fire attacks. Other than that, to me they are identical in practice.

  17. #137
    Network Hub jryan's Avatar
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    I think the Console Command Skill is way over powered... but the game obvious supports it so I can't NOT use it.

  18. #138
    Lesser Hivemind Node DigitalSignalX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jryan View Post
    I think the Console Command Skill is way over powered... but the game obvious supports it so I can't NOT use it.
    I use the disable skill from console all the time to evaporate dead bodies (especially dragons) from common paths. Haven't tried it on actual living things yet, saving it for marriage I think.
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  19. #139
    Network Hub jryan's Avatar
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    The Console skill gives me unlimited gold and lockpicks at level 1. FIX IT DEVS!

  20. #140
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jryan View Post
    The Console skill gives me unlimited gold and lockpicks at level 1. FIX IT DEVS!
    Patch 1.12: From level 1, the player will have to fight unlimited enemies nonstop forever.

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