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Thread: DotA 2 Beta

  1. #21
    Lesser Hivemind Node Spider Jerusalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspielened View Post
    Well, it seems that I have 2 DotA2 copies to give as a gift in my steam inventory. First two people that want them can have them!
    do want, sir.

    eta: account is: asheme

  2. #22
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    Oki, I've added you as friends, I will be able to send them once you've confirmed friend status (I think).

  3. #23
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Edit: Nope, missed the "2" in the original post.

  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus pakoito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspielened View Post
    Oki, I've added you as friends, I will be able to send them once you've confirmed friend status (I think).
    I'll tell my friend, I can assure you he will accept tomorrow morning.

  5. #25
    Lesser Hivemind Node Spider Jerusalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspielened View Post
    Oki, I've added you as friends, I will be able to send them once you've confirmed friend status (I think).
    accepted.

    thanks, good sir.
    Last edited by Spider Jerusalem; 01-12-2011 at 03:58 AM.

  6. #26
    Nah, but I guess it will be a hit.
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  7. #27
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Ravelle's Avatar
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    I can wait til the full release, I like the idea of the game but my experience gets stomped when I get brutally destroyed by veterans and the swearing you get when you're not as good as them. ;(

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    Am I alone in thinking "Why, Valve?"

    Why devote time and resources to this type of thing, something clearly outside your wheelhouse, something in which you don't get to apply (arguably) your greatest strengths as a studio (narrative design, Mise-en-scène)?

    I know that this could be interpreted as a sort of entitled attitude (But I want Haaaalf Liiiife!), but I don't intend it to be. Why is one of the greatest game developers (in my opinion) remaking a game almost exactly, flaws and all?

    Sorry (for all the parentheticals).

  9. #29
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus pakoito's Avatar
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    Valve took modsceners and made them make their own games. Take CS or TF. Why not DOTA, the second biggest RTS e-sport after SC? you don't like it? is it a niche game? well it has millions of people playing every day, even more than said "mainstream big games" everyone knows.

  10. #30
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    I don't mean to discount DOTA or the genre's viability. It's clear that people want to play ... "MOBAs"

    Valve's policy for seemingly everything (except Half-Life) has been: find gem in the mod/amateur scene and polish the hell out of it. It sounds as though they're neglecting the latter on Dota 2.

    Of course some will argue that DOTA is polished iteratively. It just seems odd to me, and a missed chance for Valve to apply their well-honed formula for success.

  11. #31
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    Because DotA is a masterpiece in its own right, not of the kind where you have a grand narrative or anything of that sort, which would make you think of the literary ones, but a masterpiece nonetheless as far as strategy multiplayer games are concerned.
    Last edited by redspielened; 01-12-2011 at 06:30 PM.

  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    I'm not suggesting that a grand story would add to the game. It's well-recognized as a great game, certainly, and an amazing achievement for a mod, but is it perfect? (The answer to this question is always no)

    My point is that Valve's true talent is to refine, refine, refine. Based on earlier comments, it sounds as though they are not refining.

    Sorry if I'm going too far offtopic.

  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus pakoito's Avatar
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    If you try to refine DOTA (distill, water-down, casualize, dumb-down etc...) you end up with LoL, and even though it has been a grand public success approaching MOBA to the masses, as a e-sport is just far too imperfect. Compare CS and TF2 again.

    Besides, Icefrog is far too much in love with his game to change it.

  14. #34
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pakoito View Post
    If you try to refine DOTA (distill, water-down, casualize, dumb-down etc...) you end up with LoL.
    That's assuming there aren't better solutions. Valve, along with a huge number of people, seems to have bought into the idea that you can't improve DOTA. I find that very hard to believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by pakoito View Post
    Besides, Icefrog is far too much in love with his game to change it.
    This is closer to the crux of the issue, I'd imagine.

  15. #35
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus pakoito's Avatar
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    What sells DOTA is mostly Icefrog and the game itself. The minor change enrages the community and blindly cancels it as stupid or imbalanced. Look at HoN where the smart good design decisions (some bad ones too) are called off for not being what Icefrog would do. Name it remove secret shop, ward stack changes, two buybacks, Radiant ramp to Kroshan, starting curier...

    Even with Valve's name behind we have seen several cases where the community has decided to stay in their old game rather to jump into the supposedly improved version. See CS 1.6 vs Source again. They're playing it safe this time, even down to the stupid 100ms client delay WC3 had.
    Last edited by pakoito; 01-12-2011 at 06:19 PM.

  16. #36
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Smashbox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pakoito View Post
    What sells DOTA is mostly Icefrog and the game itself. The minor change enrages the community and blindly cancels it as stupid or imbalanced (look at HoN where the smart good design decisions are called off for not being what Icefrog does).
    Thus my original question: "Why, Valve?" (Monetization of a popular free product.)
    Last edited by Smashbox; 01-12-2011 at 06:25 PM. Reason: Italicized Valve

  17. #37
    Lesser Hivemind Node lasikbear's Avatar
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    I really don't want to get into the DOTA vs LoL thing, but as far as ideas like 'you can't improve DOTA' go I feel like there are so many basic things about DOTA that could be fixed or improved.

    Just doing something like putting characters icons on the map would be huge. I know its not that hard to check at the top of the screen, but being able to immediately glance at the map and know what enemy just showed up where would be great.

    The store is also still a mess, and while organization is probably up to personal preference, its still not very intuitive to use.

    So far I am really disappointed with the beta, its a really solid remake of DOTA in a new engine, but so far it feels like that is it. If all Valve end up doing is a nearly identical remake in a shinier engine I don't see the point, someone could have just done that in the SC2 engine and it would have accomplished the same thing.

  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus pakoito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smashbox View Post
    Thus my original question: "Why, Valve?" (Monetization of a popular free product.)
    Because, same as Starcraft, the game engine was becoming too old and imprecise. There were no added features such as matchmaking, the netcode was HORRIBLE, there were no (official) bots or stat tracking, matches couldn't be spectated and leavers were unpunished. Plus heavy hero creation restrictions.

    When they finish porting all the old stuff we will start seeing new imaginative "Icefrog" heroes, and that's where S2 does not always go (new hero rage because they're too good or bad, when they're always sub-par compared to DOTA but ragers don't see that), and Riot never will (Guinsoo's cookie cutter 2xnuke/approach/pasive heroes, just lol).

    I don't see the point, someone could have just done that in the SC2 engine and it would have accomplished the same thing.
    Custom maps in SC2 doesn't have what I mentioned some lines ago. It's making the engine to fit the game, taking it out of the mod into standalone. Point is port&monetize. You can play the 7yo engine 30$ version (TFT is not free!) or the new F2P one.
    Last edited by pakoito; 01-12-2011 at 06:28 PM.

  19. #39
    Lesser Hivemind Node lasikbear's Avatar
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    The whole matchmaking/leaderboards/netcode thing is a really important point I overlooked. I guess mostly I was just looking forward to more interface/usability changes to come with it.

    Sidenote: I don't believe Guinsoo does any design for LoL anymore and hasn't for a while. I think a lot of the newer Riot designers have been making a lot of good steps and more interesting designs, but the overall design goals are probably not what you want as a hardcore DOTA fan.

  20. #40
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    LoL has too low a skill cap for individuals, which might be ok if all you'd do was organised 5v5, but since a lot of people spend a lot of time in solo queue... well, you get to a point where there's too little you can do to improve and it makes too little difference while who you get paired up with has much more of an impact. There's too little room for meaningful skilled play. That's why DotA shines, it has a higher skill cap, moving nearer to BLC, but also has all the kill creeps, get items, etc feel of normal strategy-rpg maps, just like LoL has. It's not as limited as LoL is in that regard, and it's why I prefer it.

    That being said, DotA2 has some bad issues with casting/attack range atm, as well as hitboxes, and it could do with minor improvements like minimap to allied/enemy colours (or portraits), smartcasting, etc. but it's not that big of a deal.

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