Page 8 of 15 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast
Results 141 to 160 of 286
  1. #141
    Lesser Hivemind Node Keep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    The Library Bar
    Posts
    607
    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    What RPS does focus on is games that do interesting things. New things. Different things.
    [...]
    It's not celebrating stuff or letting it off the hook just because it's indie. Just because it's a small team. It's because it's interesting.
    Yes. Sometimes 'differentness' alone is a quality worth appreciating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I'm not attacking indie games (the honest truth is I don't play that many Vs others these days), more that there's a culture of 'can do no wrong' famboyism that often surrounds them to the extent that any critical discussion is viewed as outright heresy, and that often aggressive 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' attitude means genuine feedback gets swept under the carpet.
    I think you're misinterpreting people's delight at playing something innovative with a delight at playing something 'good'.

    Most indie games I play, the little artsy things with the weird mechanics or unique angle or upfront message, I don't expect them to be very good. So if they do anything compelling, I like them - even while I mentally acknowledge that yeah it was as I expected and not really very good.

    It's like going to see a local band doing a gig, versus going to a big name concert. You don't hold the same expectations.

  2. #142
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by Keep View Post
    I think you're misinterpreting people's delight at playing something innovative with a delight at playing something 'good'.
    No, I'm attacking the rabid fanboyism that constitutes the sort of communities that revolve around certain indie developers that actually hinder them because they don't countenance criticism of what the developers are upto. Consider the whole introversion 'Subversion' debacle. Over 5 years of development and then the sudden realization that they'd made a game that was simply one of unthinking linear progression (A-B-C-D-E). No one out of their community had remotely raised a concern about what they were doing, though undoubtedly the more committed were involved and tasked with giving feedback for some time.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    He who controls the Doge controls the universe

  3. #143
    Network Hub
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    256
    I'm not convinced that's the case, Kadayi. Introversion put remarkably little out about their work on the game - showing of some interesting systems, but not much more. Why do you believe it to be 'undoubtedly' the case that there was significant feedback from outside the company? (I DOUBT IT DAMN IT.)

    I think there's a pretty decent history of Introversion relying pretty heavily on their own intuitions about the actual fun and playability of a game, for better and worse; the suspension press release for Subversion seems to indicate that this was the case here. Having said that, it's worth noting that Chris' change of heat over Subversion did actually occur following the first creation and semi-public showing of a significant 'playable slice' of the game; if there's a problem here, it may well be that Introversion didn't let anyone else see what they were creating. (Indeed, it might be worse than that - they might not have had anything that constituted a game, fun or not, for a huge chunk of that time to demonstrate to each other.)
    Last edited by Zetetic; 23-12-2011 at 08:28 PM.

  4. #144
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,313
    @Zetetic

    Because they've betatested all their previous games through their community (you even get forum badges for them). That it wasn't until they demonstrated the game 'publicly' (Vs to the wholly converted) that doubts started to creep in speaks volumes tbh.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    He who controls the Doge controls the universe

  5. #145
    Network Hub
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    256
    The thing is, I'm not even sure that it got that playable. I'm not really sure that prior to around mid-2010 there was anything that could've really been given to community testers, at least not in the guise of a beta of the game.

    If you know otherwise, then please say, because I'm only speculating based on what I've picked up on the IV forums.

  6. #146
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,313
    @Zetetic

    I'm a member of said forums (and have been for some time), but I don't post much there because frankly unless you think Introversion are the mutts nuts you get jumped on by hysterical types like Xander (the resident IW post count whore), whose firmly in the very camp of '(insert developer name) can do no wrong' thinking I consider toxic for any 'indie' gaming community.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    He who controls the Doge controls the universe

  7. #147
    Network Hub
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    256
    I'm not denying that there's a rabid following, perhaps more undeserved than most in Introversion's case. But my suspicion is that Subversion never got as far as any kind of community beta-test. It just seemed an odd example, where the failing (in so far as there was one), was the time taken for IW to step back and kill (or at least cryo-freeze) their darling.

    Edit: Perhaps more widely though, IW's a pretty good example. Perhaps Uplink, Defcon and Darwinia all could've done with slightly more critical feedback - because while I think that they're all interesting, they all could've done with a bit more thought towards playability.
    Last edited by Zetetic; 23-12-2011 at 09:55 PM.

  8. #148
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,003
    Subversion was never community beta tested.

    And surely any dev can cope with a -few- fans? Also, there's a big difference between a few hardcore fans of a dev (or musician, or director, or any other entertainment producer for that matter) and a general "x can do no wrong" amongst the critical press and the consumers more widely.

    A general, widely held attitude that doesn't provide necessary critical response is problematic. Some mouth-foaming fans are just funny to watch.
    Quote Originally Posted by CROCONOUGHTKEY
    KING GEORGE IS A FROG
    le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~—
    OFF
    NOT RUSHMORE MOUNTAIN
    KILL WESTON KILL MUST KILLTHEWESTERNINMYHEADDOESN’TEXSIST
    TEXASISDEADINPARISHEWASAMAN..BINGBING.TETTOHEAD.SP ACEOK,TIMEDEADANDSTOPPED1920HOKKAIDO.UNDERSTOODAT1 ONE.
    UNDERSTANDTHISANDFUCKOFFPIRATEBAY.TIMEDOESNTEXSIST FORMEASIMPATEKPHILLPE.
    BANG

  9. #149
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,313
    We seem to be going slightly OT, but yes I think IW are an interesting case. Personally albeit I think that Chris Delay is a talented game designer, I've always been less than convinced that the other two founders are necessarily essential to the equation, given by their own admittance they don't actually code or write the game, but rather provide 'feedback' (and we've seen how effective that is). Their business contribution seems to be a reliance on a Steam IW sale to 'save' them when the shit hits the fan every year or so. I'm fairly sure that Chris could cut them loose and pull a Cliffski and be all the better for it (less yes men for starters, and 2/3rd less of a monthly wage bill). However they've cultivated this 'last of the bedroom coders' mythology which I think has become detrimental in many ways, especially when you've people buying extra copies of games to 'support the developers' as plucky underdogs, rather than recognizing that their 'business' approach is unsustainable.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 23-12-2011 at 10:41 PM.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    He who controls the Doge controls the universe

  10. #150
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Terra Australis Incognita
    Posts
    4,365
    Oh wow, seems like I've touched a bit of a nerve. I guess that's why I'm here though!

    On the topic of the art games: the irony of sounding like a reverse-hipster isn't lost on me but I'm just doing what the other side does to prove my point. I'd argue that my point of view isn't quite as bad though because I'm willing to determine if the "game" has any actual merit as a proper game, and most of those "art games" don't. I don't go all misty-eyed at every single attempt at being an art game because most of them aren't particularly good by most standards of writing. You don't have to be a high-culture art snob to see that the art games are mostly the realm of pseudo-hipsters intent on describing their work as being of a "higher level" than the rest of the gaming world.

    On the indie games: I applaud people trying new things, but that doesn't change the fact that "being different" doesn't automatically equate with "being worthwhile". We can give credit for somebody attempting something, but we can still be critical if the attempt isn't particularly good. Also I'm not really seeing that much innovation from the indie community these days, basing on what I'm seeing with RPS news articles. A lot of them take existing gameplay mechanics from some other successful game, and then try to use some sort of hook to make themselves look different. For every Kerbal Space Program there's an awful lot of 8-bit style platformers looking to include mechanics like portals or physics puzzles.

  11. #151
    Lesser Hivemind Node Keep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    The Library Bar
    Posts
    607
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I applaud people trying new things, but that doesn't change the fact that "being different" doesn't automatically equate with "being worthwhile". We can give credit for somebody attempting something, but we can still be critical if the attempt isn't particularly good.
    I think you're dead-on right.

    But I feel the current stage of videogames-as-capital-letter-Art is more "Kid with crayons" than "Picasso with canvas".

    Better to praise and encourage and fuel inspiration and desire than be realistic and critical and honest. Games don't yet have the internal vocabulary necessary to realise their potential, so there's no really much value in pointing out "Oh but it's not that good". Of course it isn't! Why would you expect it to be? But give it time, nourish it, before long we'll have amazing things.

    O'course, if all the game is trying to do is "Be fun", then yeah: games have a solid vocabulary for expressing that, so it should be totally doable and if it's just not...well out with the knives for sure.

  12. #152
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus thegooseking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Three miles from the nearest bus stop
    Posts
    1,097
    I don't even want to add a new category here, because I don't think I can without going on a sweary rant (an impulse I've spent the past few hours trying to rein in), but suffice to say today has seen a few choice examples that have made me very pissed off.

    Deep breath.

    I think I feel better for having said that. Carry on.
    "Moronic cynicism is a kind of naïveté. It's naïveté turned inside-out. Naïveté wearing a sneer." -Momus

  13. #153
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Terra Australis Incognita
    Posts
    4,365
    Quote Originally Posted by thegooseking View Post
    ...but suffice to say today has seen a few choice examples that have made me very pissed off.
    What did I do this time?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keep
    Of course it isn't! Why would you expect it to be? But give it time, nourish it, before long we'll have amazing things.

    I kind of disagree here, for two reasons. Firstly, a lot of the issues with the art games is that they're either poorly written or poorly represented if they're trying to use symbolism. Bad writing isn't the fault of a fledgling gaming sector, it's simply being a bad writer. Without criticism they'll never improve. A child who is told that crayon drawings of stickmen are flawless and heaped with praise will have a misrepresented view of the value of his work, because let's face it, it's still bad art whether it's developing or not. Compare it with something like Planescape: Torment's outstanding writing. I know it's a slightly unfair comparison because one was from a major studio and the others are from indie startups, but gaming has been able to support strong stories for ages now. I hardly think that the "games are art" movement should be excused from criticism for that point!

    Secondly, I think the other issue is that "games as art" often are very poor games. A great many of them are simply slideshows or blatantly linear click-fests. The term "game" implies that there are goals, challenges, and rules. A PowerPoint presentation is not a game. A jigsaw puzzle on the other hand is a game, since there's a challenge to reassemble the pieces. Most of the "art" games have goals in some ways (i.e. reach the end) but don't have challenges, gameplay rules, and very little interaction. I think a lot of the examples ultimately don't do so well because they try to shoehorn their art into a "game" when it doesn't really fit, and detracts from the whole experience. Tale of Tales I think are the absolute worst at doing this because it's blatantly obvious they do it to make money since nobody else would pay for their "art", and I think their attempts suffer for it. The Path or The Graveyard could easily have been short animated films (The Graveyard more-so since The Path lets you skip content, namely because everything is so friggin' far away at such stunted walking speeds) but they instead chose to push them into "games" when they're not really games.

  14. #154
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by thegooseking View Post
    I don't even want to add a new category here, because I don't think I can without going on a sweary rant (an impulse I've spent the past few hours trying to rein in), but suffice to say today has seen a few choice examples that have made me very pissed off.
    Spit it out Goose. I'm fascinated as to what we've said that's put you on the boil.

    @Soldant, Keep

    The key advantage of computer games over other mediums like literature or film is interactivity in the form of choice & consequence when it comes to the players actions. If you truly want to make an 'art' computer game then I'd say you really need to work with that unique aspect of the medium Vs the others. There's a lot of ponderousness to games like Limbo or Braid, but much of that comes down to interpretation that is extrinsic to the actual playing experience. Braid would be no lesser a gaming experience for lack of Tim's book opening sequences and similarly Limbo would be no worse for a narrative explanation as to what's going on. The 'Art' of each is simply obscuration as to the narrative intent. Devoid of that they are both linear puzzlers.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    He who controls the Doge controls the universe

  15. #155
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    NY f'n C
    Posts
    9,917
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Secondly, I think the other issue is that "games as art" often are very poor games. A great many of them are simply slideshows or blatantly linear click-fests.
    I think part of that problem is that those who are making "art" games tend to define "art" as something we don't already infuse in just about everything we do, stylistically. Art is everywhere, and tends if nothing else to make a statement, however ephemeral or banal. Nothing is too "low" for me; a studio musician isn't not making music, after all. As such, when I think "art" game, I don't think Limbo, I think Interstate 76 or No One Lives Forever: You can't deny that they have their own styles, and such is in direct service to a cohesive whole. That isn't to say Limbo doesn't have a stylistic influence, but art for the sake of art is by definition bereft of meaning, which is probably why it's held in contempt by many.

    Nevertheless, I still say supporting bad indie developers is nothing more nor less than hipster welfare, but having an industry where indie developers, good or bad, can easily get their stuff out to the masses is a net positive.
    Last edited by Nalano; 24-12-2011 at 09:45 AM.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  16. #156
    Lesser Hivemind Node Flint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Manchester / Finland
    Posts
    933
    I think it's all good and such to say that the indie scene is a great alternative to the mainstream stagnation, but to me that's only true once the indie companies begin to tackle mainstream genres as well and revitalise/innovate the genres that everyone rolls eyes at these days (in addition to creating all these off-the-cuff games from less promiment genres for surprise excitement) while stopping the oversaturation of the 'market' with gimmick platformers and yet more puzzle games. It's started to get a bit in that direction during the past year or so, so hopefully it's not too far off now that things like Unity are becoming more widespread and games like EYE show that even small teams can easily do something in a slightly grander scale (even if they're wonky and flawed in aspects, but small steps...).
    Last edited by Flint; 24-12-2011 at 10:14 AM.
    Give me steam and how you feel to make it real.

  17. #157
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,150
    I think to be honest we should be infusing the message we want to say into the gameplay, and thats not what I think art games tend to do very well. They basically are trying to put a Triangle into the Square hole. They try and try to fit a message onto a game without thinking whether it fits or not.

  18. #158
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,313
    I can't say that 'art' is misused (it's too big a term that covers a multitude of sins) but I think it's been overused as term to the extent that it's become kind of meaningless through (in a similar way to 'fascist' has lost it's true intent). From a historical perspective 'Art as statement' is a relatively new phenomena Vs 'Art as aesthetic experience'. Does that shift automatically mean that all 'Statements are Art'? I'm still out on that tbh, but I can't help but think that there's a devaluation taking place in some form. We're not helped by the fact that we don't have a separator between 'statement' and 'Aesthetic experience' when it comes to terminology. Ballet is as much 'art' as Tracy Emins tent is 'art' from a cultural perspective. It's kind of like trying to define what is a 'game'.

    I think to be honest we should be infusing the message we want to say into the gameplay, and thats not what I think art games tend to do very well. They basically are trying to put a Triangle into the Square hole. They try and try to fit a message onto a game without thinking whether it fits or not.
    Complete agreement. I spent more time weighing up whether to support the humanoids or the humans in the Witcher (whom both had their positives and negatives) than I ever did worrying about who the Princess represented in Braid (although I enjoyed Braid as a puzzler).
    Last edited by Kadayi; 24-12-2011 at 10:24 AM.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    He who controls the Doge controls the universe

  19. #159
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Terra Australis Incognita
    Posts
    4,365
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    As such, when I think "art" game, I don't think Limbo, I think Interstate 76 or No One Lives Forever: You can't deny that they have their own styles, and such is in direct service to a cohesive whole.
    Oh man, Tale of Tales would crucify you if they heard you using the term "art game" to describe something so "common" as NOLF. I agree, art can be found in plenty of other games, even mainstream ones. Perhaps those seeking to label the games "art games" are deliberately trying to draw a line in the sand to separate themselves from the "lesser" games for more attention, or to be judged by different standards?

  20. #160
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    NY f'n C
    Posts
    9,917
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Perhaps those seeking to label the games "art games" are deliberately trying to draw a line in the sand to separate themselves from the "lesser" games for more attention, or to be judged by different standards?
    Well, duh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Does that shift automatically mean that all 'Statements are Art'?
    In my opinion, anything not directly applicable to survival can be lumped as art, though you could probably limit that by only referring to conscious attempts. But then, I define culture as "the collective habits of how we cope with life," which is, admittedly, a functional if not evocative reference to the confluence of art, music, language, fashion and ritual that it represents.

    So yeah, all statements are art, though the medium is part and parcel of the message. I don't think that such devalues art because I don't think art can intrinsically be devalued. Arguably, our cavalier attitude towards war "devalues" life, but life's just as important as ever it was.
    Last edited by Nalano; 24-12-2011 at 11:12 AM.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •