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  1. #41
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gimperial View Post
    That wasn't my excuse though, I've said several times that if I'm banned for gifting for money (which isn't allowed by Steam) I'm totally OK with that.
    Doesn't matter if you profit from it, just that it occurs. And gifting within Russia isn't an issue.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Doesn't matter if you profit from it, just that it occurs. And gifting within Russia isn't an issue.
    The fact is - there are many screenshots of Steam support saying that gifting from Russia to other regions is A-ok. The only thing that isn't, is doing it for money, whether it's for profit or not (mine wasn't for profit). Gifting from Russia to the US is most definitely not a bannable offense. Doing it in exchange for money is.

    But Steam Support still haven't told me why I'm banned, and as far as they are concerned I was just gifting a lot of games to friends, because I know that they haven't hacked my paypal ;)

  3. #43
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    That's how real products work, because they actually cost something to make. Differential pricing exists with games and films precisely because they are not real products and every sale - regardless of dollar amount - is 100% profit.
    Yeah, games cost nothing to make, and whenever a game is sold it's all profit. None of it goes to covering the costs of actually producing the game because they just pop out of thin air.

    Games cost little to nothing to press and distribute. Even less if digitally distributed. But they don't cost nothing to make. I'm all for the free flow of information, and games are fundamentally information. But good information doesn't just happen.

    Also, pretty much all exercises in voluntary pricing have failed to indicate that they generate enough income to cover the costs of production. All you get are people who couldn't afford it at full price paying what they can, and those who could afford it at full price, paying a lot less.
    Quote Originally Posted by CROCONOUGHTKEY
    KING GEORGE IS A FROG
    le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~—
    OFF
    NOT RUSHMORE MOUNTAIN
    KILL WESTON KILL MUST KILLTHEWESTERNINMYHEADDOESN’TEXSIST
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  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    Games cost little to nothing to press and distribute. Even less if digitally distributed.
    Which would then stand to reason that every sale is a profitable one, tho not equally profitable, and certainly not 100% profit.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  5. #45
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Rii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    Yeah, games cost nothing to make, and whenever a game is sold it's all profit. None of it goes to covering the costs of actually producing the game because they just pop out of thin air.
    Of course they don't ... but what of it? Producing a game (or any other form of IP) is a risk voluntarily assumed by everyone involved. Society owes them nothing.

    Also, pretty much all exercises in voluntary pricing have failed to indicate that they generate enough income to cover the costs of production. All you get are people who couldn't afford it at full price paying what they can, and those who could afford it at full price, paying a lot less.
    Flawed methodology in a biased environment leads to invalid results.
    Last edited by Rii; 28-01-2012 at 06:17 PM.

  6. #46
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    Of course they don't ... but what of it? Producing a game (or any other form of IP) is a risk voluntarily assumed by everyone involved. Society owes them nothing.



    Flawed methodology in a biased environment leads to invalid results.
    I never said we owed them anything. But I quite like people who make games 'taking a risk'. And I'd rather foster an environment where more people are willing to take those risk. And environment where they are highly unlikely to see any renumeration for that effort is not such an environment.

    And as to your second point: The world is not a laboratory. Society and consumer habits even less so. If the environment is biased, then you need to conduct experiments in that biased world.


    I would love a world where things were not so biased and consumer habits were different. If you have any suggestions as to how to change that, I would gladly listen.

    The discussion around HOW we create an environment that fosters creativity and good information production by renumerating (which does not necessitate financial renumeration) that production AND accepts that information can will and shoul pass freely is far, far more the interesting discussion to be having.
    Quote Originally Posted by CROCONOUGHTKEY
    KING GEORGE IS A FROG
    le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~—
    OFF
    NOT RUSHMORE MOUNTAIN
    KILL WESTON KILL MUST KILLTHEWESTERNINMYHEADDOESN’TEXSIST
    TEXASISDEADINPARISHEWASAMAN..BINGBING.TETTOHEAD.SP ACEOK,TIMEDEADANDSTOPPED1920HOKKAIDO.UNDERSTOODAT1 ONE.
    UNDERSTANDTHISANDFUCKOFFPIRATEBAY.TIMEDOESNTEXSIST FORMEASIMPATEKPHILLPE.
    BANG

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Jesus H. Christ: Businesses charge what the market will bear. That's why Heineken is more expensive in the US than in the Netherlands - not because it's hard to import (American Heinekens are made in America) but because it's "imported."
    But isn't the availability of cheap personal importing, brought about by the internet, and especially appealing for digital products, a legitimate factor in altering what the market will bear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Gifting in general isn't the problem. Gifting from Russia is, and "other people do it too" isn't exactly an excuse. :p
    I'm fairly sure Steam have developers capable of outright blocking gifts from Russia to people in other territories. They can clearly identify when this happens so why not just block it using technical measures. Or if it's only 'excessive' gifting that's the problem, decide on a number for 'excessive' and stop any trades over that number.

    More generally, when did this 'no gifting for money' thing start? I wasn't aware of it, we've had a 'data smuggling' thing going on in these forums and I seem to remember "buy a double pack and split the cost with a friend" was something Valve heavily marketed with Portal 2?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    words
    This is the only place I've found it in writing:
    https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...JL-2656#giving

    Note that that isn't actually part of the SSA, just a separate kb article. Also excessive gifting is not the problem - at least not according to Steam Support. In their one and only reply to me, they said excessive gifting was not why I was banned. It's why I want to know why i was banned, but there's no way they will tell me, which is why I was hoping RPS would ask - they know how to get answers...

    But you make a good point - in the case of 4 packs, do they really expect one person to pay for all of them from the goodness of their heart? I don't think that's ever happened, and anyone buying 4 packs has had 3 people paying the buyer.

  9. #49
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    "I helped some friends get cheaper games from my region (Russia). Some paid me via paypal (Steam doesn't allow this) and some via pints/beer/other games."

    Yeah, that's an ordinary predictable and expected ban.

    Steam has to enforce region restrictions on games. You bypass it repeatedly you get banned.

    Sometimes they pay different people based on the region purchased. Sometimes a different product goes to different regions, this might be because of a legal requirement for blood or whatever. Steam is licensed to sell particular products in particular regions for particular prices. Often whole regions are forbidden to buy the product at all.

    If steam doesn't enforce the region restriction they are violating their contract with publisher.

    Russia has drastically lower prices for many games on steam right now so there is newly a rush of people trying the same thing you did and getting banned. The temptation right now is pretty high. The problem is so bad that many publishers have withdrawn their product from Russia completely, including ID, bethesda, etc..

    There's lot of threads on steam forum where they establish that the region restrictions are a serious contractual and legal issue for steam that they have to enforce, and the region restrictions aren't their choice it is a requirement put on them by the publisher contracts.

    Here's another Russian banned for this kind of thing, and showing many people are interested and active in these trades.
    http://forums.steampowered.com/forum....php?t=2492274
    Last edited by BenWah; 28-01-2012 at 08:06 PM.

  10. #50
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    BenWah: I saw a few people post screenshots of bans, but they were given warnings first. That way they knew what they were banned for. Also they were doing it blatantly, just selling games for profit. I was doing it strictly between friends - so as far as Steam knew, I was just gifting (which is absolutely allowed, to any region). In my opinion there are easier ways to enfore this - like taking away the ability to gift or trade, instead of outright banning an account with $1000+ games on it.

    But the reason I made this thread is because they haven't told me that that's why I'm banned. I wonder if it's because they don't have any proof - I didn't post about it anywhere (before getting banned, anyway).

    Edit to clarify: Steam Support have said before that gifting games to regions where they are unavailable to buy is allowed. But either way, that's not what I was doing.
    Last edited by gimperial; 28-01-2012 at 08:18 PM.

  11. #51
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gimperial View Post
    The fact is - there are many screenshots of Steam support saying that gifting from Russia to other regions is A-ok.
    Link one, because all I see on the forums are Steam mods repeating "bypassing region restrictions is a bad idea."
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Link one, because all I see on the forums are Steam mods repeating "bypassing region restrictions is a bad idea."
    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=421931

    Very bottom of the first post. They don't specifically say bypassing is allowed, but they do say gifting internationally is fine. If you want, contact Steam Support and ask if you're allowed to gift a game to your friend who is in a region where it's unavailable, they'll say yes (I've seen screenshots of that too but can't find them right now).

    If they didn't want you to do it, they would jsut disable trading/gifting of games to a region where it's unavailable.

  13. #53
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    That's not a screenshot.

    Thanks for playing, though.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    That's not a screenshot.

    Thanks for playing, though.
    I don't really see why I need to convince you. like I said, if you don't believe me, send Steam Support a ticket and ask. You'll get a reply (within 2 weeks). It's kind of irrelevant though because I'm not claiming innocence, I want Steam to say exactly what they're banning for.

  15. #55
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gimperial View Post
    It's kind of irrelevant though because I'm not claiming innocence, I want Steam to say exactly what they're banning for.
    Which I don't think is an unreasonable expectation. If you're going to get banned for something, particularly if you've invested money into it, you should be told why you're being banned. Whether you think he's innocent or not I think we can all at least agree on that he should be told exactly why they've decided to ban the account.

  16. #56
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    gimperial, just let me say that if you take this issue to a trial, you should win. If the TOS aren't clear enough, if there is proof that others have done this without being warned/banned... you should win and take lots of money from them.

    Valve has NO proof (only your word, and that's... silly) that you sold those games you gifted, "overpriced". And if you did, it's your problem. Valve should have implemented REGION LOCKED trading.

  17. #57
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Which I don't think is an unreasonable expectation. If you're going to get banned for something, particularly if you've invested money into it, you should be told why you're being banned. Whether you think he's innocent or not I think we can all at least agree on that he should be told exactly why they've decided to ban the account.
    But I'm not a judge or a Valve employee, so I can't say anything besides "hey, this guy is committing all manner of perjury; I find this funny."
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  18. #58
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    But I'm not a judge or a Valve employee, so I can't say anything besides "hey, this guy is committing all manner of perjury; I find this funny."
    Oh by all means carry on, I'm just pointing out that it's not an unreasonable request for him to find out exactly why he was banned. I mean Valve isn't a silly little clan server with an admin who bans people "because of teh ghey lel", they have to make decisions and be held accountable for them, which includes detailing what the decision was in the first place.

  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Oh by all means carry on, I'm just pointing out that it's not an unreasonable request for him to find out exactly why he was banned. I mean Valve isn't a silly little clan server with an admin who bans people "because of teh ghey lel", they have to make decisions and be held accountable for them, which includes detailing what the decision was in the first place.
    They also work on Valve-time, which is likely forever swamped by endless requests by their millions of customers. I suppose there's something to be said in our modern technocracy where actually supplying legions of live representatives is probably the biggest bottleneck a lot of these companies have.
    Last edited by Nalano; 29-01-2012 at 02:43 AM.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    They also work on Valve-time, which is likely forever swamped by endless requests by their millions of customers. I suppose there's something to be said in our modern technocracy where actually supplying legions of live representatives is probably the biggest bottleneck a lot of these companies have.
    They've replied twice to me, both times copy pasting their "violated the SSA". The second reply also said the ban wasn't due to excess gifting, and it ended with "we will not be able to help you further with this issue", which means they'll be ignoring any further tickets from me (which they have been). I'm not really complaining about response times, and I certainly don't see how I'm committing perjury considering I've said I did someting that's a bannable offense.

    All I want is for Valve to tell me why I'm banned. My guess is they have no proof.

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