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  1. #81
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    Sorry, if you're factoring in where the money goes and why it costs something, you're not making a business decision. You're simply not. The post you're linking to even says this: you give a load of reasons why you might not make a business decision when you buy something.

    Let's not put words into your mouth, shall we, but put your own words into your mouth. Your own words being "And sorry, but 30 bucks for a game that is over 6 years old is still "obscene" in my eyes." Are you going to stand by those words (the ones I initially took issue with, let us not forget), or accept they are silly words?

    I'll offer you some alternative words to use. How about "I'm not sure it's worth that much money", or "I think I can spend the money more efficiently on other games", or "The price is not necessarily obscene, but I am taking the moral position that their download service is not worth supporting", or "The price is not obscene if it would be a permanent download, but it only lasts a few days so it's worth much less to me". These are all sensible words.

    And you are asking the wrong question. The question isn't "Is it okay if the best product on the market is one of the most expensive". The question is "Is it okay if the best product on the market is substantially more expensive than all other similar products?" which is a VERY different question. Also, I still question why I can buy Silent Storm and Jagged Alliance 2 for 10 bucks or less each, but I am expected to pay 70/50/30 bucks for Dom3 :p. Dom3 being the best is arguable and opinion. Silent Storm having the best tactical combat ever is a scientific fact and anyone who says otherwise is a dirty rat-loving bastard who should be drawn and quartered :p.
    It's an interesting question, but I don't have any good sales projections at hand and I suppose you don't either so we probably can't pursue the question too far. I'd go as far as saying that Dominions 3 is much more niche than the examples you're giving. Those examples are games that many people interested have probably played, and so most of the modern buyers of the game will be those who are only vaguely interested, or people who already have the game but want it in a more convenient form. For Dominions 3, on the other hand, there are likely to be a lot of potentially-interested people who haven't got the game yet, whereas all the potentially-vaguely-interested people are probably not even going to hear about the game. That's my understanding of the argument for keeping niche games more expensive.

    What you usually see with these sorts of game is that they're available from niche stores for expensive until they pop up on a more mainstream store like Steam where they're sold more cheaply. I think that the Avernum games worked like this. I think they are still expensive on the developer's website, even, but I might be wrong about that. I'm not sure Dominions 3 isn't on a more mainstream site; I know that CoE3 got rejected from Steam initially.

    And mostly I am just mockinhg gp because good freaking god his excuses are insanely offensive and funny :p. I still firmly believe it is just a matter of the devs living in the past.
    Well I'm not going to disagree there. For my part I was mostly just seeing what would happen if I concentrated on just one thing and kept repeating it over and over again, because on most other threads you successfully confuse people by making really long posts where they can't work out what to reply to, and then you win the argument.

    Anyway, as the squirrel-lover says, we had probably better stop now.
    Last edited by NathanH; 02-11-2012 at 04:29 PM.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  2. #82
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    Sorry, if you're factoring in where the money goes and why it costs something, you're not making a business decision. You're simply not. The post you're linking to even says this: you give a load of reasons why you might not make a business decision when you buy something.
    You work in investment banking and/or the government, don't you? :p

    You should ALWAYS consider where your money is going and what it is supporting. And why it costs that much. Otherwise, you really ARE being unethical and you CAN say that I argue it is a moral imperative to at least consider that.

    You argue it might not be a purely business decision: Let's cite the second Nolan-Batman movie! Bruce and Morgan Freeman refused to give Chinese Guy money because he laundered money for the mob. Maybe that was a moral reason, but it is also a business reason: You REALLY don't want to go down with them when they get caught.

    Let's not put words into your mouth, shall we, but put your own words into your mouth. Your own words being "And sorry, but 30 bucks for a game that is over 6 years old is still "obscene" in my eyes." Are you going to stand by those words (the ones I initially took issue with, let us not forget), or accept they are silly words?
    Why would I think they are "silly words"?

    I'll offer you some alternative words to use. How about "I'm not sure it's worth that much money", or "I think I can spend the money more efficiently on other games", or "The price is not necessarily obscene, but I am taking the moral position that their download service is not worth supporting", or "The price is not obscene if it would be a permanent download, but it only lasts a few days so it's worth much less to me". These are all sensible words.
    No, the price really is obscene. Not as obscene as the 70 dollar price point of last year, but considering that it is really still 55 and is "on sale" I stand by that.

    If I try to sell you a pencil for fifty dollars, that is an obscene price point. And it better be a god damned amazing pencil that will write for you and massage your prostate when you are lonely.



    It's an interesting question, but I don't have any good sales projections at hand and I suppose you don't either so we probably can't pursue the question too far. I'd go as far as saying that Dominions 3 is much more niche than the examples you're giving. Those examples are games that many people interested have probably played, and so most of the modern buyers of the game will be those who are only vaguely interested, or people who already have the game but want it in a more convenient form. For Dominions 3, on the other hand, there are likely to be a lot of potentially-interested people who haven't got the game yet, whereas all the potentially-vaguely-interested people are probably not even going to hear about the game. That's my understanding of the argument for keeping niche games more expensive.
    I argue that Dom3 is only "niche" BECAUSE of the price point. Mechanically, it falls into the same general category as a paradox or Total War game. And Paradox made 143 million SEK last year which I assume is good money. Sure not all of that was HoI and Crusader Kings, but it is safe to assume they still made enough off of that to support them in the years before they branched out.

    The problem is: For whatever reason, the dom3 dev just won't accept people's money. If I sell lemonade for 50 dollars a glass, I am not selling "niche" lemonade. I am a moron :p. People WANT the lemonade, but they refuse to give me that much money.

    Honestly, it reminds me of when high schoolers make a game in game maker that looks like trash and handles worse than PETA's Super Tofu Boy. They use the excuse "It is an homage to the 8-bit era" as a crutch. No, it is just garbage.

    Dom3 is not raking in the cash (I think we can both agree it is safe to assume the devs aren't millionaires because of it :p) because it is a niche game. Dom3 is not raking in the cash because the sales model is crap and many of the people who DO decide to spend the money refuse after seeing the hoops they will have to hop through.

    What you usually see with these sorts of game is that they're available from niche stores for expensive until they pop up on a more mainstream store like Steam where they're sold more cheaply. I think that the Avernum games worked like this. I think they are still expensive on the developer's website, even, but I might be wrong about that. I'm not sure Dominions 3 isn't on a more mainstream site; I know that CoE3 got rejected from Steam initially.
    Honestly, I think CoE3 probably got rejected for a horrifyingly bad sales blurb. Seriously, go read it. I just skimmed it and said "Me want, buy" but after actually reading it, I think that is going to be the biggest barrier to sales. And it further reinforces my belief that the devs are idiots who are clinging to the sales model of the late 90s/very early 00s: He just doesn't give a crap about selling the games.



    Well I'm not going to disagree there. For my part I was mostly just seeing what would happen if I concentrated on just one thing and kept repeating it over and over again, because on most other threads you successfully confuse people by making really long posts where they can't work out what to reply to, and then you win the argument.
    I won an argument on these boards? News to me. Can you cite it so that I can go get a warm fuzzy feeling? :p

    And I am really not sure WHAT you were focusing on. Judging by this post it seems like you took offense to the word "obscene". And to that, I say "So the hell what?"

    Anyway, as the squirrel-lover says, we had probably better stop now.
    Why? It is an interesting discussion. The argument of what a game SHOULD cost after a certain amount of time.
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  3. #83
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Why? It is an interesting discussion. The argument of what a game SHOULD cost after a certain amount of time.
    See, this thread is supposed to be about CoE3. I suggested that if you want to talk about pricing issues, you start a new thread for this, as the to and fro in your discussion has little to nothing to do with that game.

  4. #84
    Activated Node JiminyJickers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrelfanatic View Post
    See, this thread is supposed to be about CoE3. I suggested that if you want to talk about pricing issues, you start a new thread for this, as the to and fro in your discussion has little to nothing to do with that game.
    Yeah, I agree.

    Maybe this thread's heading should be changed as there is pretty much no discussion about CoE3.

  5. #85
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    SALE BUMP:Bundle Edition

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  6. #86
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    It's a neat game. There are a bunch of things that take some getting used to- mostly the pace, the archaic interface, and the limited action set. Still, it's the sort of thing I'm clearly going to keep installed forever and come back to on a whim fairly regularly. It has the feel of a strategy Roguelike- lots of options and freedom, lots of randomness, and failure comes quickly. Games are not so long that you aren't tempted to jump straight into a new one when you lose.

    I love the variety in the races you can play as, and I love how many different units there are. There's a lot of learning to do, since it's always hard to know what fights you can win without a lot of experience, but that learning is part of the charm. Hey, I've got a pretty tough army- how tough can a Beholder be anyway.. oh god not the face!

  7. #87
    Network Hub Prester John's Avatar
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    Just got this from Steam for 1.74 (available until feb 21st).....

  8. #88
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bobtree's Avatar
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    I bought it too. I love roguelikes and some roguelike-likes, and wanted to support Illwinter a bit, so I'll give it a spin.

    Dominions 3 was intriguing and I tried the demo, but it's so rough and full of slow minutia that I'll never get my friends to learn it and play year long games. Total War: Dominions 4 would blow me away, but the odds of that happening are pretty much zero.

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