Conquest of Elysium 3

[gp1628]

Shazam. I'll be buying that when I get home.

I'm another guy who wanted to try Dominions 3, but the mixture of an obscene price point and no DD-service backing it turned me off. Different genre, but it still intrigues me.

Both of those have changed a bit.
Dom3 now has DD. And is presently on sale for $30. And if you are student or american military you can get 10% off of that.

People have played it for years. It takes such time to even try out all of the unique nations that its worth the price.

[gundato]

Both of those have changed a bit.
Dom3 now has DD. And is presently on sale for $30. And if you are student or american military you can get 10% off of that.

People have played it for years. It takes such time to even try out all of the unique nations that its worth the price.

I only see it through the "official" Shrapnel Games store. And, if memory (and a quick glance), serves, they are the "charge you for extended download service" kind of people.

And sorry, but 30 bucks for a game that is over 6 years old is still "obscene" in my eyes. Not as bad as 70 for a game that was 5 years old, but still not something I am keen on.

[NathanH]

And sorry, but 30 bucks for a game that is over 6 years old is still "obscene" in my eyes. Not as bad as 70 for a game that was 5 years old, but still not something I am keen on.

If you rewrite it as "30 bucks for a game that has yet to be surpassed" then it becomes less obscene. This principle that as games get older they necessarily need to become very cheap is silly.

[gundato]

If you rewrite it as "30 bucks for a game that has yet to be surpassed" then it becomes less obscene. This principle that as games get older they necessarily need to become very cheap is silly.

Which is exactly why black ops is still 40 (I am actually amazed modern warfare 2 is down to 20...).

And when I can find just about every turn-based tactical squad-level strategy game (the JAs, XCOMs, and Silent Storm :p) for, at most, 10 bucks each, my sympathy drops. Especially when the guy was trying to sell it for 60-70 bucks a year or so ago...

Don't get me wrong, the game looks amazing and I still want it. But it is indicative of all the bad things that held indie gaming down for so long: Anything that wasn't garbage (or, at the very least, one step away from vaporware) was being sold at obscene prices that never went down (due to no competition). Whereas, once the indie devs started to acknowledge they had lower development costs than the major studios, indie gaming became so popular that it seriously threatens the major studios.

Every game has its equilibrium price point. I hope that 30 bucks from a shady DD service is the equilibrium for Dom3. But it isn't the price I'll pay for it at. And that makes me sad, but not 30 dollars sad.

[gp1628]

There are other sources. You can get it from the fun Dom3minions.com store at Amazon.com
But Im afraid it is still at $50 there. You can also get other "live forever on your machine" games there (the prices of which make Dom3 look cheap) :)

Sorry you are sad but since Dom3 isnt marketplace driven it is almost random in its chances for price change. Its more likely to go like Illwinters Conquest of Elysium series. CoE3 came out, and CoE2 became a free download. Maybe if Illwinter ever becomes interested in doing a Dom4 then you can get Dom3.

[NathanH]

And when I can find just about every turn-based tactical squad-level strategy game (the JAs, XCOMs, and Silent Storm :p) for, at most, 10 bucks each, my sympathy drops. Especially when the guy was trying to sell it for 60-70 bucks a year or so ago..

I have no idea why you're referring to the standard price for an entirely different type of game...

If you like Dominions 3, then there's no real competitor so $30 is far from an obscene price.

[gundato]

I have no idea why you're referring to the standard price for an entirely different type of game...

If you like Dominions 3, then there's no real competitor so $30 is far from an obscene price.

Your argument was essentially "Its the best there is at what it does, and what it does is very expensive". I pointed out that pretty much every other genre's "best" games tend to follow normal pricing trends.

Also, it is kind of funny that the dev finally lowered the price over the past year or so. Make sense since Warlock came out, and Fallen Enchantress does what Elemental tried to do a few years back. Not exactly the same genre, but close enough to add competition.

I dunno. I just feel like this is another case of people making excuses for indie devs. If this were Activision, people would be up in arms. But since it is an indie dev, it is okay to charge 70 bucks for a 5 year old game and 30 for a 6.


Sidenote: Anyone know Amazon's re-download policy? I have never used them for anything other than serials (for Steam, Origin, or the PSN)?

[NathanH]

My point is that the game is worth much more than $30 if you like it. A sensible person doesn't worry too much about whether games fit standard pricing policies. A sensible person buys games that are worth their price or worth more than their price. I agree that if you have only $30 and no strategy games then there are better choices. But there aren't actually that many strategy games that offer better value for money than Dominions 3 in my opinion. It's the best game of its type, so you should be prepared to pay $30 if you like its type.

Basically, old games, even ones that are still the best of their type, get discounted heavily because they're trying to catch the attention of a lot of people who value games very superficially, and would only buy old games if they're discounted heavily. But you're just one person, so you don't have to worry about those superficial people. If the video gaming world was filled with pinnacles of human evolution, then old games wouldn't be so heavily discounted.

[Heliocentric]

My point is that the game is worth much more than $30 if you like it. A sensible person doesn't worry too much about whether games fit standard pricing policies. A sensible person buys games that are worth their price or worth more than their price.

I find it sensible to be patient, its a rare thing that a discount or a bundle doesn't fill up my roster for a pittance. I can even afford to be fussy and only play (imo) great games. So if some great games fall by the way side because their developers decide their product is "premium" so be it.

[gundato]

My point is that the game is worth much more than $30 if you like it. A sensible person doesn't worry too much about whether games fit standard pricing policies. A sensible person buys games that are worth their price or worth more than their price. I agree that if you have only $30 and no strategy games then there are better choices. But there aren't actually that many strategy games that offer better value for money than Dominions 3 in my opinion. It's the best game of its type, so you should be prepared to pay $30 if you like its type.

Basically, old games, even ones that are still the best of their type, get discounted heavily because they're trying to catch the attention of a lot of people who value games very superficially, and would only buy old games if they're discounted heavily. But you're just one person, so you don't have to worry about those superficial people. If the video gaming world was filled with pinnacles of human evolution, then old games wouldn't be so heavily discounted.

Actually, if a game doesn't follow "standard pricing policies" to this degree (still full price after 5 years, price of a new discount game after 6) it DOES raise red flags.

For years (probably up to the release of Starcraft 2), Starcraft was sold in the battlechest for 30 bucks or so. Same with Diablo 2 (that might have gone down with Diablo 3). Those raise a flag, but I can safely say "They are so beloved that Blizzard can gouge people".

Call of Duty games tend to stay at full price, or close to it, until the next one is released. To me, that raises a flag. Further study shows that it is mostly because Activision like to gouge their customers and know that most people are either gonna buy it new or not at all. That tells me "If I at all care about MP, buy it new. Otherwise, wait for a GOOD Steam sale"

Dom3 was 60-70 bucks (can someone with a better memory confirm which number I should keep citing? :p) 5 years after release, and is now 30 dollars 6 years after release. What does that tell me? That tells me that the developers perceived a monopoly on their genre up until a year or so ago and didn't see any reason to lower prices. The sudden drop (but still high price) tells me that they now see competition, but are hoping that it fails. But the reasonable pricing on CoE (possibly a bit too low, not sure how old it is) shows me that the devs may have "seen the light" and realize they need to compete, which means that Dom4 (if it is ever made) will probably follow reasonable price trends.

And maybe it does contain 70 dollars worth of quality. That doesn't mean it should necessarily be 70 dollars after 5 years (or 30 after 7). I loved Dark Souls. I bought it new for my PS3, then I bought it for about 30 bucks after coupon for the PC. I feel every single penny was well spent and would spend it again. Hell, if I didn't already own Demon Souls and know it was a much more frustrating game, I would be willing to pay 50 bucks for that. But before I threw the cash down, I would stop and think: "This game came out a few years back and already has a sequel. Should I be paying full price for this?" and I would probably wait for a sale. Its the same reason why I never bought the CD for Tomba 1, since by the time I knew how good it would be (having already played and loved Tomba 2) it was going for 60 or 70 bucks a pop. And that worked out well since it came to the PSN.

The REALLY funny thing: there have been plenty of times I was tempted to buy Dom3 for the full 70 bucks. But every time I checked, they had crap DD services. If anything, this drop to 30 basically guaranteed I am not paying more than 20 bucks for just about anything the guy makes. Why? Because it shows me that the devs don't care about their fans and just want to screw everyone for every penny they can get. I can stick with the big publishers and Paradox for that :p. The former gives me shinier graphics, the latter at last spreads the screwing out over multiple DLCs and expansions.

And please correct me because I hope I am wrong, but... are you actually advocating HIGHER video game prices in that last paragraph?

[NathanH]

You could have saved yourself a lot of time by writing "I am a strange person who, when determining whether to pay money in exchange for a product, consider lots of things other than whether the product is worth the money I'm paying for it", you know.

And please correct me because I hope I am wrong, but... are you actually advocating HIGHER video game prices in that last paragraph?

I'm not really advocating anything, because the gaming demographic is not dominated by pinnacles of human evolution, so game prices are going to reflect that. I am simply saying that if it was, then old games would generally cost more, and new games would generally cost less.

I think it's fair for games of quality not to drop in price even after some years. Of course it's fair to say that you're not prepared to pay a high price for an old game, but to say that a high price for an old game is obscene is, to me, a little obscene.

[NathanH]

I find it sensible to be patient, its a rare thing that a discount or a bundle doesn't fill up my roster for a pittance. I can even afford to be fussy and only play (imo) great games. So if some great games fall by the way side because their developers decide their product is "premium" so be it.

Well yes, but here we're talking about a very particular game where patience doesn't work very well and that is something quite special. If you like the type of game Dominion 3 is, then I think you'd be better off cutting back on, say, your next 5 pittance purchases and buy Dominions 3 instead.

[gundato]

You could have saved yourself a lot of time by writing "I am a strange person who, when determining whether to pay money in exchange for a product, consider lots of things other than whether the product is worth the money I'm paying for it", you know.

Or you could have read what I posted and understood that I think a bit more than "Do these previews sound like they are worth X dollars".

I'm not really advocating anything, because the gaming demographic is not dominated by pinnacles of human evolution, so game prices are going to reflect that. I am simply saying that if it was, then old games would generally cost more, and new games would generally cost less.

I think it's fair for games of quality not to drop in price even after some years. Of course it's fair to say that you're not prepared to pay a high price for an old game, but to say that a high price for an old game is obscene is, to me, a little obscene.

Heads up, I suggest not talking about "evolution" and the like. Makes you sound like one of those morons who advocate eugenics as an excuse for social awkwardness. And nobody wants to be lumped in with them :p

I read a lot of books. Both the kinds with lots of pictures (comic) and the kind with lots of words ("normal").
The Battletech tie-in novels are the perfect example. Yes, some of them were garbage, but most were fun reads and they are still the pinnacle of "mech on mech" action in book form (although, Abnett's 40k books about Titans do a pretty good job). Up until a few years ago, they were out of print. A quick amazon search shows the price most of them were going for http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...rensky&x=0&y=0
But fortunately, they went into (digital) print a few years back and they were priced (by the publisher) at around 3-4 USD a book.

Now, to me, that says a lot. Maybe I am "unevolved", but I don't see why I should be paying 70 dollars for a random book by Stackpole. I for one think they should have gone for a paperback price point (7 bucks, preferably discounted to 5 since it was an ebook), but the current IP holders decided to go cheap because they care about their fans/want to gouge us in other aspects. And I respect that, and it made me buy more than just Stackpole's books (as a kid, I only ever had the Blood of Kerensky trilogy so I never got to find out if Kai Allard-Liao had a remotely happy ending. Spoilers: He probably had one of the happier endings for nobility in that universe). But if they had tried to sell those at the hardcover price point (around 15-25 bucks, depending on what publisher) I would have told them to go to hell and looked for alternatives (I hear there is an interesting series of books about super-massive tanks that sort of reads like mech-on-mech action). Why? Because the books are over 10 years old and being sold in a purely digital format.

Most people will accept that Duke3d and DOOM were a LOT of fun. Does that mean that whoever owns the rights to Duke (Gearbox?) and iD (Bethesda owns them, right?) should sell 15 and 19 year old games at an 80 dollar price point? I mean, they are probably the pinnacle of their respective kinds of FPS and CLEARLY "better" than all current games, so they should be more expensive, right? I mean, paying for quality, right? :p

General rule of thumb: Imagine that Apple/MS/Activision/EA/George Lucas is the one doing something. If you suddenly feel the urge to bitch about it, either you are a petty douche or you are defending a bad practice. Either way, start bitching :p

[Heliocentric]

Well yes, but here we're talking about a very particular game where patience doesn't work very well and that is something quite special. If you like the type of game Dominion 3 is, then I think you'd be better off cutting back on, say, your next 5 pittance purchases and buy Dominions 3 instead.

Its a sound argument but Solium Infernum has my soul atm.

[lasikbear]

I am pretty certain Dom3's price is set by Shrapnel (the publisher) and not Illwinter. Shrapnel keeps it in line with all of their other products because they view themselves as a niche developer and mostly publish hardcore wargames. Illwinter is just two dudes who like mythology and made a game about it, and I believe they opted out of dealing with most of the buisness side.

Edit: also y'all should stop complaining and buy the damn thing so we have more RPS people to play with =D

[vinraith]

Has Dom 3 continued to see updates? How's the AI and the single player experience these days? I doubt I'd ever play it MP, and its reputation as a primarily MP title (coupled with the price) have kept me at bay. I'm happy to support an indie developer with a full price purchase, so long as it's a game I'll actually enjoy playing solo.

[NathanH]

Or you could have read what I posted and understood that I think a bit more than "Do these previews sound like they are worth X dollars".

I'm sorry, but I read through all of your extremely tedious posts and, once I'd filtered out the 95% that had nothing to do with the matter at hand, none of it had anything to do with whether a product was worth X dollars, they all had to do with whether it conformed to what you considered standard pricing policies, and if it didn't it was labelled obscene. I suggest you try to defend this position or retract it instead of trying to deflect.

Heads up, I suggest not talking about "evolution" and the like. Makes you sound like one of those morons who advocate eugenics as an excuse for social awkwardness. And nobody wants to be lumped in with them :p

I read a lot of books. Both the kinds with lots of pictures (comic) and the kind with lots of words ("normal").
The Battletech tie-in novels are the perfect example. Yes, some of them were garbage, but most were fun reads and they are still the pinnacle of "mech on mech" action in book form (although, Abnett's 40k books about Titans do a pretty good job). Up until a few years ago, they were out of print. A quick amazon search shows the price most of them were going for http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...rensky&x=0&y=0
But fortunately, they went into (digital) print a few years back and they were priced (by the publisher) at around 3-4 USD a book.

Now, to me, that says a lot. Maybe I am "unevolved", but I don't see why I should be paying 70 dollars for a random book by Stackpole. I for one think they should have gone for a paperback price point (7 bucks, preferably discounted to 5 since it was an ebook), but the current IP holders decided to go cheap because they care about their fans/want to gouge us in other aspects. And I respect that, and it made me buy more than just Stackpole's books (as a kid, I only ever had the Blood of Kerensky trilogy so I never got to find out if Kai Allard-Liao had a remotely happy ending. Spoilers: He probably had one of the happier endings for nobility in that universe). But if they had tried to sell those at the hardcover price point (around 15-25 bucks, depending on what publisher) I would have told them to go to hell and looked for alternatives (I hear there is an interesting series of books about super-massive tanks that sort of reads like mech-on-mech action). Why? Because the books are over 10 years old and being sold in a purely digital format.

[snip]

General rule of thumb: Imagine that Apple/MS/Activision/EA/George Lucas is the one doing something. If you suddenly feel the urge to bitch about it, either you are a petty douche or you are defending a bad practice. Either way, start bitching :p

None of this has anything to do with the matter at hand. Please stick to the point instead of trying to deflect the argument into something you think you have a chance against. Your typical method is not going to work on me, so don't waste your time eroding your keyboard for nothing.

Most people will accept that Duke3d and DOOM were a LOT of fun. Does that mean that whoever owns the rights to Duke (Gearbox?) and iD (Bethesda owns them, right?) should sell 15 and 19 year old games at an 80 dollar price point? I mean, they are probably the pinnacle of their respective kinds of FPS and CLEARLY "better" than all current games, so they should be more expensive, right? I mean, paying for quality, right? :p

I don't claim they "should" be a particular price or another. That's what you are doing, not me. They "should" be whatever price the publisher believes will optimize their revenue. When I am considering whether to purchase a product, I don't worry about what price they "should" be, just whether the price demanded is worth the product offered. In that calculation, age of the game should have no importance. If you know nothing about the game, then age of the game informs you about certain things like graphics and interface, but there is a demo of Dominions 3 to inform you about those, so the age can be ignored from our calculations.

[gundato]

I'm sorry, but I read through all of your extremely tedious posts and, once I'd filtered out the 95% that had nothing to do with the matter at hand, none of it had anything to do with whether a product was worth X dollars, they all had to do with whether it conformed to what you considered standard pricing policies, and if it didn't it was labelled obscene. I suggest you try to defend this position or retract it instead of trying to deflect.



None of this has anything to do with the matter at hand. Please stick to the point instead of trying to deflect the argument into something you think you have a chance against. Your typical method is not going to work on me, so don't waste your time eroding your keyboard for nothing.



I don't claim they "should" be a particular price or another. That's what you are doing, not me. They "should" be whatever price the publisher believes will optimize their revenue. When I am considering whether to purchase a product, I don't worry about what price they "should" be, just whether the price demanded is worth the product offered. In that calculation, age of the game should have no importance. If you know nothing about the game, then age of the game informs you about certain things like graphics and interface, but there is a demo of Dominions 3 to inform you about those, so the age can be ignored from our calculations.

Got it, if it isn't an imaginary made up eugenics-supported argument that favors your favorite game, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand :p

And there are demos of Duke3D (probably :p). DOOM is famous for having (almost) the entire first episode be a demo. I still don't think anyone would defend id/bethesda for selling those at high price points.

All the CoD games have demos. People bitch that those still cost so much.

What makes Dom3 so special? Aside from the fact that you like this money-grubbing dick but don't like the other money-grubbing dicks? :p

[squirrelfanatic]

Sorry to interrupt here, but did I read that correctly: Dominions 3 is available for 30$ somewhere? And as a DD? Would someone be so nice as to provide a link? I would love to try that game but was always turned off by the non-digital-distribution (I am located in Europe) and the possibly high corresponding shipping costs.

[gundato]

Sorry to interrupt here, but did I read that correctly: Dominions 3 is available for 30$ somewhere? And as a DD? Would someone be so nice as to provide a link? I would love to try that game but was always turned off by the non-digital-distribution (I am located in Europe) and the possibly high corresponding shipping costs.

The shrapnel games store has it for 30. No, I won't link to it because I am pretty sure they sell "extended download" services that I refuse to support.

Allegedly it is available at Amazon's DD too, but all I can find is the CD for 50 bucks http://www.amazon.com/Dominions-3-Mac/dp/B000K0OSFS which isn't great, but is more reasonable than it used to be.