Conquest of Elysium 3

[lasikbear]

Sorry to interrupt here, but did I read that correctly: Dominions 3 is available for 30$ somewhere? And as a DD? Would someone be so nice as to provide a link? I would love to try that game but was always turned off by the non-digital-distribution (I am located in Europe) and the possibly high corresponding shipping costs.

https://www.gamersfront.com/store/do...awakening.html

Vinraith: its still updated on occassion, and there is a healthy mod community. The mods are mostly balance related, but many of them also add content.

As for single-player, its possible and there are some mods out there that try to make the AI avoid some of the worse decisions it tends to make, but at least in my experience its still not that great. There are so many things the AI just won't do. Its still playable, and you can have some fights between giant armies, but the AI tends to not deal with mid and late game strategies well, as it really just likes to make large armies of dudes and send them to their death. I am not be the best person to answer that question though, as I really don't do much in single player besides test.

[squirrelfanatic]

Thanks to both of you, gundato and lasikbear. The extended download service makes it a dealbreaker for me, sadly. Apparently you've only got 10 days to download your game, with the service it is 2 years. I'll see what the demo can offer and then maybe have a closer look at Amazon's download policy.

[NathanH]

Got it, if it isn't an imaginary made up eugenics-supported argument that favors your favorite game, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand :p

And there are demos of Duke3D (probably :p). DOOM is famous for having (almost) the entire first episode be a demo. I still don't think anyone would defend id/bethesda for selling those at high price points.

All the CoD games have demos. People bitch that those still cost so much.

What makes Dom3 so special? Aside from the fact that you like this money-grubbing dick but don't like the other money-grubbing dicks? :p

Another post filled with things entirely irrelevant to the matter at hand. Perhaps you haven't noticed yet, but I am not going to fall for your tiresome deflection tactics. Stick to the matter at hand or pipe down.

[gundato]

Thanks to both of you, gundato and lasikbear. The extended download service makes it a dealbreaker for me, sadly. Apparently you've only got 10 days to download your game, with the service it is 2 years. I'll see what the demo can offer and then maybe have a closer look at Amazon's download policy.

If you can find the Amazon download link, post it here. I can't find it, and while I still refuse to give them more than 20 bucks a game (considering the crap they pull), I might get lucky and it will go on sale (or I'll have a discount code).

Another post filled with things entirely irrelevant to the matter at hand. Perhaps you haven't noticed yet, but I am not going to fall for your tiresome deflection tactics. Stick to the matter at hand or pipe down.

Translation: Na na na na, I'm not listening. I can't hear you. Na na na na, I am right, you are wrong, na na na na, let's breed a master race of gamers who only like what I like!!!

But I just will leave you with this: Seriously, imagine that this were Blizzard or iD or the remnants of Infinity Ward doing this kind of crap: I doubt you would be defending them.

[NathanH]

Translation: Na na na na, I'm not listening. I can't hear you. Na na na na, I am right, you are wrong, na na na na, let's breed a master race of gamers who only like what I like!!!

But I just will leave you with this: Seriously, imagine that this were Blizzard or iD or the remnants of Infinity Ward doing this kind of crap: I doubt you would be defending them.

You really do have no shame, do you? Even when you've been repeatedly called out on your attempts to deflect and start new arguments that you think you can win when you find yourself in an argument you think you're going to lose, you keep on doing it. Incredible!

[gundato]

You really do have no shame, do you? Even when you've been repeatedly called out on your attempts to deflect and start new arguments that you think you can win when you find yourself in an argument you think you're going to lose, you keep on doing it. Incredible!

Yes, because questioning the rationale of "It is better, so it should cost more regardless of how old it is" has nothing to do with questioning why other fields (and other people IN the field) don't do it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

But please, keep just screaming and whatever. I had a feeling we wouldn't get a decent discussion out of it, and it looks like that holds true. Although, this has gotten me to thinking on the topic in general. But I won't dare to discuss anything in here that might offend your highly evolved mind :P

[gp1628]

Amazon: http://astore.amazon.com/dom3-20
Shrapnel: http://www.gamersfront.com/store/dom...awakening.html
and 10% off for Scholars or Soldiers: http://www.gamersfront.com/store/shr..._soldiers.html

Extended sounds just like giving in to the public demand. It means nothing there. Ive seen people write to customer support of both Shrapnel and Illwinter to get downloads years later as long as they have a serial or something. Shrapnel is a tiny few-people company. They just dont leave the links forever available. Long enough to download to multiple machines is all you need.

The PRICE wont change because it is NOT market driven. They dont care what other games are selling for. I know lots of indie programmers and publishers. As far as I can see the pricing is based on "Im still having fun making it", then "Im losing interest but I might as well leave it offered", and then finally "I dont care". CoE3 is priced $30 by the developers, and $9 by Steam. The previous no longer supported or upgraded version CoE2 is now a free download on Shrapnel. Thats how it goes. Throwing the tactics of corporate companies at them just gets a laugh.

[gundato]

Ah, so Amazon IS only the CD version. Probably smarter to get considering how much Shrapnel is trying to screw people on the DD.

Also: Who the hell was demanding to pay extra to download a game without going through customer support or torrents? Someone should beat the crap out of them :p

And GP: Nobody is disagreeing that they can set it to whatever they want to. The problem is, like I said, that that mentality is what almost "killed" indie gaming. We basically had two kinds of indie games: The incredibly expensive ones (that may or may not have had good support) and the vaporware/abandoned ones. Yes, there were a few exceptions, but they all basically said "We aren't market driven, so screw you guys"

And that was HORRIBLE. These days, indie games (the quality of which is generally MUCH higher) compete with publisher-backed games and follow the same price charts (if not lower). And EVERYONE is benefiting The devs make a lot more money due to volume. The consumers are much happier because they can try a wide variety of games. And even the publisher-backed devs are making more small side projects that get started at bargain (30 buck) price points.

That is basically my big complaint here. The devs are saying "Screw you guys, we want more money" and are clinging to the past. Again, if this were MS doing crap like this we would ALL be up in arms.

Maybe the game is worth 70 bucks (honestly, it looks like it is :p). But there is no reason that it should still BE 70 bucks after 5 years (and probably not 30 after 6).

Again. Imagine if whoever owns D&D these days decided "You know what? Screw everyone. We own the D&D license, people like D&D video games. Let's resell IWD and BG and NWN and the Gold Box Games for 80 bucks a pop. Nobody else can make a D&D game. And if they try, we'll sue their asses". Then, all of a sudden, the only legal way to play NWN would either be to already own a copy or to pay D&D-owner peoples 80 dollars. Pretty sure people would be feeding child porn to the gods of 4chan to sic Anonymous on them :p
But an indie dev does it, and suddenly it is okay?

Ah well. Here is hoping the sales of CoE3 are enough to make him realize that a lower price point (especially after 7 years...) is a good thing in that it makes a LOT more sales. Because most of the people who were gonna pay 70 bucks for it already did years ago (the drop to 50/30 strongly suggests it).

[JiminyJickers]

Has Dom 3 continued to see updates? How's the AI and the single player experience these days? I doubt I'd ever play it MP, and its reputation as a primarily MP title (coupled with the price) have kept me at bay. I'm happy to support an indie developer with a full price purchase, so long as it's a game I'll actually enjoy playing solo.

I would also like to know the answers to your questions.

[gp1628]

That is basically my big complaint here. The devs are saying "Screw you guys, we want more money" and are clinging to the past. Again, if this were MS doing crap like this we would ALL be up in arms.

Maybe the game is worth 70 bucks (honestly, it looks like it is :p). But there is no reason that it should still BE 70 bucks after 5 years (and probably not 30 after 6).

Ah well. Here is hoping the sales of CoE3 are enough to make him realize that a lower price point (especially after 7 years...) is a good thing in that it makes a LOT more sales. Because most of the people who were gonna pay 70 bucks for it already did years ago (the drop to 50/30 strongly suggests it).

You make it so cut & dried. All conspiracy. They arent saying we want more money. If they did then the low cost for more sales would make sense. The cost of Dominions kept the player base the way they liked it. So far, I think the new pricing arrangment is either going to convince them to go back or convince them to do like other devs and simply drop support after the game is released. And so far those prices are sales prices. I wouldnt count on them staying that way.

[gundato]

You make it so cut & dried. All conspiracy. They arent saying we want more money. If they did then the low cost for more sales would make sense. The cost of Dominions kept the player base the way they liked it. So far, I think the new pricing arrangment is either going to convince them to go back or convince them to do like other devs and simply drop support after the game is released. And so far those prices are sales prices. I wouldnt count on them staying that way.

No. You are assuming intelligent people. I am assuming that the devs are still living in the past when Dom3 first came out. Back when Indie Games cost an arm and a leg because they COULD charge that much. And you notice how most indie devs now launch at a 10-30 dollar price point? There is a reason for that...

And like I said. The game looks amazing and I have wanted it for about 6 years :p. But every time I went to buy it, the price turned me off or the DD service turned me off. And after all this time, the dev is turning me off. Either the developer doesn't care and gave it all to the publisher (at which point, I see no particular reason to give the publisher that much money) or the developer is a set-in-his-ways dick who insists on holding on to the practices that screwed indie gaming for years. Either way, there are other MUCH better games I can play for MUCH lower price points. And those come without having to support an organization that pushes "extended download services".

Hopefully it really IS the "big bad publisher/distributor" who is doing all this and the developer is a really nice guy. Maybe I'll buy Dom4 if he ever makes it. But I don't see myself getting Dom3 any time soon. It sucks, but I have better things I can waste my money on. Like a model rocket engine, superglue, a melon baller, and a dildo.

[gp1628]

Has Dom 3 continued to see updates? How's the AI and the single player experience these days? I doubt I'd ever play it MP, and its reputation as a primarily MP title (coupled with the price) have kept me at bay. I'm happy to support an indie developer with a full price purchase, so long as it's a game I'll actually enjoy playing solo.

Im sorry this got buried. Thanks JiminyJickers for pointing it out again.

Ive played Dom3 longer than almost anyone (longer than its been released) and personally I play almost entirely Solo. The only MP games I get into anymore are any with some really quirky variation to try.

YES Dom3 has continued to get updates. FREE patches and updates for years. Nations have been added, UI fixes, player requested changes, modding commands, etc. Here is the progress list for Dom3
http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/dom3progress.html
The netbook stuff showed up when someone gave Johan a netbook. Ive joked that we should send him an Android phone.

Yes the Dom3 page has slowed down but that overlaps with the CoE3 progress page.
http://jaffa.illwinter.com/coe3/coe3progress.html
Lately Dom3 updates have been CoE3 updates that could be backported. Also the players have begun to port the nice new CoE3 unit sprites into Dom3 updates mods of their own.

As for Solo play.....
check out www.Dom3Minions.com
Its a crappy little site but there are notes there about solo play. It lists some of the maps and mods to iprove AI. And mentions some always-running games you can join that use some of the abilities of the game for boosting AI. Or at least making it surprising again.

[gp1628]

No. You are assuming intelligent people. I am assuming that the devs are still living in the past when Dom3 first came out. Back when Indie Games cost an arm and a leg because they COULD charge that much. And you notice how most indie devs now launch at a 10-30 dollar price point? There is a reason for that...

The reason for it is that they continually got pestered by the Dom3 crowd that it would not affect things badly.

Seriously, are you so locked into a player vision that you cant see the pros and cons of pricing?
They were continually told that lots of $5 sales would make up for few $50 sales. But what they are getting is lots of $5 players in the forums instead of a few $50 players. And lots of $5 customer support instead of a few $50 customer support. And its not just the numbers. Its the difference between general age, attitudes, and the kinds of requests. If they get blown off of supporting the game then I will not be thrilled with the wonderful sales.

[gundato]

The reason for it is that they continually got pestered by the Dom3 crowd that it would not affect things badly.

Seriously, are you so locked into a player vision that you cant see the pros and cons of pricing?
They were continually told that lots of $5 sales would make up for few $50 sales. But what they are getting is lots of $5 players in the forums instead of a few $50 players. And lots of $5 customer support instead of a few $50 customer support. And its not just the numbers. Its the difference between general age, attitudes, and the kinds of requests. If they get blown off of supporting the game then I will not be thrilled with the wonderful sales.

Ah, so I am expected to spend 70 dollars for a 5 year old game/30 for a 6 year old game so that I can join an elite crowd? That fee isn't for the game, it is for the prestige of being a member of the community? I think that might actually be WORSE than just calling the dev a money-grubbing dick :p

And don't give me that crap over not being able to support the game with a bunch of 5 dollar customers. That hasn't stopped any of the major indie success stories. Because at the end of the day, you have three kinds of "problems":
Major ones. The ones that affect almost everyone who plays. And that can be fixed just as easily for 50 people as for 5. In fact, more people means more data means faster fix.
Minor ones. Those annoying tiny bugs that screw over one or two people out of every hundred. Again, there shouldn't be a huge number of these and they can be fixed much easier if you have more people experiencing it. And before you say "If we had fewer people, the devs wouldn't have to spend so much time fixing 'minor' bugs", let me stop you because you will be saying that you want to pay more to have a buggier piece of software :p
Suggestions. Complaints/problems that are more about design/features. Yes, a higher volume of those can be overwhelming, but that is why you either ignore them or wait to see which ones bubble to the top.

Also, ArmA has gone through some pretty big super-sales and has followed "normal" pricing patterns. Even after the massive influx of people who got ArmA2 just for Day Z, the official forums (and most communities) are still great. Why? Because those "5 dollar" gamers that you seem to not like tend to bounce off and try other stuff. They say "This isn't my cup of tea, I am gonna play something else" and leave.

[NathanH]

Maybe the game is worth 70 bucks (honestly, it looks like it is :p).

If it looks like it is worth $70 then you should be prepared to pay $70 if $70 is the lowest price it is available for. If it doesn't look like it is worth $70 then you shouldn't be prepared to pay $70 if $70 is the lowest price it is available for. That's all you should be considering if you're making a rational consumer decision. That's all.

Perhaps you're not making a rational consumer decision, which is fine, well within your rights and everyone does it. But then you don't denounce the price as "obscene" and you state instead that you're not willing to pay it. It's as simple as that.

That games tend to decrease in price as time goes by is a statement of fact, but you seem to be taking it as a moral principle that must always be followed, which is really weird. It isn't a moral principle, it's just something that usually happens, but sometimes it doesn't, and that's totally fine.

[gundato]

If it looks like it is worth $70 then you should be prepared to pay $70 if $70 is the lowest price it is available for. If it doesn't look like it is worth $70 then you shouldn't be prepared to pay $70 if $70 is the lowest price it is available for. That's all you should be considering if you're making a rational consumer decision. That's all.

Really? So back during the scare about dolphins in tuna, you believe people should have ignored flipper getting ground up (more flavor! :p) and should have SOLELY looked at the price?
If a restaurant chain uses profits to support political agendas you disagree with, you should ignore that and still go there because they have a cheap lunch combo?
Game Development Group X are dicks and are pushing a VERY bad model of DRM. But if the game is cheap and you think you'll have fun, you should just ignore all that?

No, in all those cases you weigh those "cons" against the price. If the chicken is still REALLY cheap, then screw the poor bastards being persecuted. But if the chicken is just "cheap", then principles win out.

Here is the thing nate. When you make a "rational consumer decision", you consider all available facts. You think about what you are getting for your dollar and what your dollar is supporting.
Its the same reason that a lot of people (myself included) still make it a point to shop at the local comic book shop every so often. Yes, the prices are higher than amazon, but you are supporting something. Maybe I get no additional value with my TPB of Volume 2 of Red Robin, but I am supporting people I like who might help me out finding something down the line. Or at least have a nice halloween party. And for one or two dollars more, I am cool with that. Do I always shop there? no. But I make it a point to hit them up regularly.

This game looks fun, and it might even be 70 dollars worth of fun. But then you add in a digital distribution store that push HORRIBLE practices In my mind, that raises the effective cost a bit. Then you question "Wait, this game was out for how many years? And it is still expensive? Either this is the best thing ever, or the dev is a dick" and you look into which of those possibilities it is. And that raises the effective cost even further.

So the game, on its own, might be worth 70 bucks. But the way it is being sold and who is selling it has definitely lowered its value in my eyes to a good solid 20 or less.

[NathanH]

First of all, don't call me Nate. If you want to use a nickname, use Nath, but you're not my friend so I don't think using a nickname is appropriate.

Second, you've decided that it's a moral principle that old games must be dirt cheap. Please justify this moral principle. "Lots of other people do it" is not justification for a moral principle. "I feel like it" is not justification for a moral principle. You've repeatedly called it obscene, but offered no justification for this beyond "lots of other people do differently". This isn't good enough. Try to justify this. Preferable in at most two paragraphs, without recourse to analogies.

Let us be very clear: few people will lower the price of their game because they think that it is the morally correct thing to do. They usually do it because they reckon that it'll be a good business decision. A few people might do it out of kindness, but doing things out of kindness is still a business strategy isn't it.

[vinraith]

Im sorry this got buried. Thanks JiminyJickers for pointing it out again.

Ive played Dom3 longer than almost anyone (longer than its been released) and personally I play almost entirely Solo. The only MP games I get into anymore are any with some really quirky variation to try.

YES Dom3 has continued to get updates. FREE patches and updates for years. Nations have been added, UI fixes, player requested changes, modding commands, etc. Here is the progress list for Dom3
http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/dom3progress.html
The netbook stuff showed up when someone gave Johan a netbook. Ive joked that we should send him an Android phone.

Yes the Dom3 page has slowed down but that overlaps with the CoE3 progress page.
http://jaffa.illwinter.com/coe3/coe3progress.html
Lately Dom3 updates have been CoE3 updates that could be backported. Also the players have begun to port the nice new CoE3 unit sprites into Dom3 updates mods of their own.

As for Solo play.....
check out www.Dom3Minions.com
Its a crappy little site but there are notes there about solo play. It lists some of the maps and mods to iprove AI. And mentions some always-running games you can join that use some of the abilities of the game for boosting AI. Or at least making it surprising again.

Thanks for the detailed reply. That + the discount = 1 new sale, $30 is a fantastic bargain for a game of this scale and depth.

Edit: Ah shit, did I miss the window? I show it at $55...

[NathanH]

Btw Gundato, if you are interested in Dominions 3 but aren't sure from the demo whether it's worth the asking price, I can probably mail you my copy of Dominions 2 which I don't need any more, assuming I can find it.

[Heliocentric]

Thanks for the detailed reply. That + the discount = 1 new sale, $30 is a fantastic bargain for a game of this scale and depth.

Edit: Ah shit, did I miss the window? I show it at $55...

Don't feel bad, your just not a $55 customer.