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  1. #41
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Why does this thread exist? I've already given a definition of an RPG that no one here has managed to find exceptions to over a 30 page thread. Let's leave it at that, shall we?
    1) UK_John probably wants a word with you

    2) If your referring to that thread from the old forum I think you've an active imagination as to how well you came off in it.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    2) If your referring to that thread from the old forum I think you've an active imagination as to how well you came off in it.
    It's on this forum. I even checked the length of it before I made the post. And I came off perfectly fine considering no one could find any exceptions to my definition in those 30 pages.

  3. #43
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    It's on this forum. I even checked the length of it before I made the post. And I came off perfectly fine considering no one could find any exceptions to my definition in those 30 pages.
    Exceptions to your definition are rather hard to find - As you make the definition, it is up to you what the exceptions are - as it is your definition. Yours and yours alone.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    It's on this forum. I even checked the length of it before I made the post. And I came off perfectly fine considering no one could find any exceptions to my definition in those 30 pages.
    We found loads. Like Mass Effect 2. And you'd just go 'that's not an RPG' thus creating a circular argument.

    I could posit that RPGs are all games and only games with "Dragon" in the title. Then you could go: but what about Ultima and Pools of Radiance and Baldur's Gate? And I could go "they're not RPGs, they can't be because they don't have 'Dragon' in the title". If I keep doing this, after 30 pages, no-one will be able to find any exception to my definition either.

  5. #45
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Berzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    RPGs are all games and only games with "Dragon" in the title.
    I'm willing to accept this definition. I will require some reconsideration on my part, but I'll do the work necessary to make it happen.
    Support for my all-pepperjack-cheese food bank charity drive has been lukewarm at best.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    We found loads. Like Mass Effect 2. And you'd just go 'that's not an RPG' thus creating a circular argument.
    Lots of people claim that Mass Effect 2 isn't an RPG. Even a lot of people who love stuff like Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 1 say that.

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    I could posit that RPGs are all games and only games with "Dragon" in the title. Then you could go: but what about Ultima and Pools of Radiance and Baldur's Gate? And I could go "they're not RPGs, they can't be because they don't have 'Dragon' in the title". If I keep doing this, after 30 pages, no-one will be able to find any exception to my definition either.
    Of course you can. But at the same time there are lots of people who are intelligent enough to call Oblivion and Mass Effect action RPGs instead of RPGs.

    I mean, the only real issue with my definition seems to be what people consider the divide between action RPGs and RPGs. We never really got on to discussing that in the thread.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    I mean, the only real issue with my definition seems to be what people consider the divide between action RPGs and RPGs. We never really got on to discussing that in the thread.
    But Mass Effect is really nothing like Ultima is it? The idea of having one genre that (with modifiers like J, S, Action, MMO, etc) can cover Mass Effect, Final Fantasy Tactics, Persona 3, Xenoblade Chronicles, Diablo, Ultima, Wizardry, Puzzle Quest, Chrono Trigger, Defender's Quest, World of Warcraft, EVE, Project Stronghold and Sequence...

    And in the gaming taxonomy, "RPG" is placed at the same level as "FPS" which specifically means "game where you shoot things in the first person"... the difference in the width of definition is silly. Yes, we can narrow it down with prefixes and suffixes, but it's getting to the point where it's almost silly to bother. The prefix becomes far more descriptive of the type of game than the "RPG" bit to the point that it might as as well not even be there.

  8. #48
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
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    Ah, it's that time of the year again. Round and round it goes.

    On topic:

    Quote Originally Posted by uk_john View Post
    Remember, the Adventure genre was going strong until Tomb Raider came along and called itself an "Action-Adventure". Hardcore Adventure fans complained bitterly that Tomb Raider was not anything like an adventure game. The complaint was practically (always the case) ignored, and more and more "Action-Adventures" were released. Within 2 years the adventure genre was practically gone.
    "Action-Adventure" games have very little to do with the classic genre of "Adventures". I think the term has been coined for games like "Tomb Raider" because here was a game that did not fit so well in other categories but contained a lot of action sequences and also had a theme to it that was rich with exploring and adventuring.

    Therefore, it seems a bit far fetched to attribute the decline of "Adventure" game releases to the emergence of that new genre.

    Now, I still am wondering why people get upset about "Action-RPGs". Maybe the name isn't very fitting, as these games have more to do with shooting than the player interacting with the game world, but the confusion really ends here. Neither have these games brought upon us the end of the classic "RPGs", nor do they claim to be a full-blooded "RPG". They are just popular and successful because they appeal to a lot of people. Maybe these people would never have liked a classic "RPG" to begin with but love the mix of shooting/hacking and talking in a sci-fi/fantasy world.

    It might be a shame to see a genre that you love dwindle away but that has little to do with another genre "stealing" its name and more with itself lacking popularity.
    Last edited by Squiz; 21-02-2012 at 05:55 PM.

  9. #49
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    I don't think that Wizardry's definition was strong enough. It doesn't seem to rule out games on a much larger scale (for instance, Crusader Kings almost falls into this RPG definition and its mechanics could easily be adjusted to make it fit perfectly) or tactical wargames. I think the definition of RPG ought to exclude these sorts of thing.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    I don't think that Wizardry's definition was strong enough. It doesn't seem to rule out games on a much larger scale (for instance, Crusader Kings almost falls into this RPG definition and its mechanics could easily be adjusted to make it fit perfectly) or tactical wargames. I think the definition of RPG ought to exclude these sorts of thing.
    But the definition is that of an RPG, not a part of anything else. The more you add to it the smaller the RPG part becomes. Stick to the three points and you have an RPG, but add to them and you get a game that includes an RPG.

  11. #51
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    That's the point: I don't think games of that type should be considered to "include" an RPG.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    That's the point: I don't think games of that type should be considered to "include" an RPG.
    It's like Battlezone in a way. It's undoubtedly an RTS, but it also covers first person shooter/vehicular combat prominently.

  13. #53
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Where's QuantaCat? I wanna rub his nose in this.
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  14. #54
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    NEWSFLASH: Genre definitions are sloppy.

    Some people care about this.

    I don't understand why.

  15. #55
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    Would a game like Dungeon Master, Abandoned Places or Legends Of Grimrock (at least the parts the devs talked about so far) count as an RPG or Action RPG then? Or would Dungeon Crawlers be a sub-genre on its own? I can certainly see the abstraction level, but they don't seem to change gameplay according to the player as far as I remember.


    Quote Originally Posted by Urthman View Post
    NEWSFLASH: Genre definitions are sloppy.

    Some people care about this.

    I don't understand why.
    Categorizing stuff is human.

  16. #56
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    We found loads. Like Mass Effect 2. And you'd just go 'that's not an RPG' thus creating a circular argument.
    IIRC we ended up with Wizardry boldly attempting to defy Wittgenstein over the philosophical lack of a clear definition with regards to what constitutes 'Game'. AFAIK Wittgenstein is still winning, and from the grave as well.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    IIRC we ended up with Wizardry boldly attempting to defy Wittgenstein over the philosophical lack of a clear definition with regards to what constitutes 'Game'. AFAIK Wittgenstein is still winning, and from the grave as well.
    IIRC you kept trying to persuade everyone that CRPGs are video games where you play a role.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by c-Row View Post
    Would a game like Dungeon Master, Abandoned Places or Legends Of Grimrock (at least the parts the devs talked about so far) count as an RPG or Action RPG then?
    Action RPGs. Speed matters. You don't even get to pause.

    Quote Originally Posted by c-Row View Post
    Or would Dungeon Crawlers be a sub-genre on its own? I can certainly see the abstraction level, but they don't seem to change gameplay according to the player as far as I remember.
    What does dungeon crawlers have to do with anything? Dungeon crawling can be turn-based, real-time, top down, isometric or first person. It's a descriptor for the game's setting and content.

  19. #59
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    Why does this matter so much to people? I don't give a shit if a game is technically a cRPG or an action RPG. I just want to play fun games.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by gganate View Post
    Why does this matter so much to people? I don't give a shit if a game is technically a cRPG or an action RPG. I just want to play fun games.
    Well, it doesn't matter as such. But when I want to bitch a little about not having any new CRPGs to play, I don't want to be spammed with links to Skyrim, Fallout 3, Mass Effect 2 and whatnot.

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