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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Yeah yeah. People who genuinely like older games get branded as nostalgic, while people who like newer games are branded as reasonable and progressive. But have you ever considered that old games might actually be better and that rose-tinted glasses may not apply? Nah. Of course you haven't. Because that would defeat your point, right?
    I heard there are also those people who like older and newer games, without labeling everything new as dumbed down crap or everything old as dusty relics never to be played again. Shocking, I know.

  2. #22
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subatomic View Post
    I heard there are also those people who like older and newer games, without labeling everything new as dumbed down crap or everything old as dusty relics never to be played again. Shocking, I know.
    Well said.
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    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
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    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
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    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.

  3. #23
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subatomic View Post
    I heard there are also those people who like older and newer games, without labeling everything new as dumbed down crap or everything old as dusty relics never to be played again. Shocking, I know.
    We call those traitors. :)

  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subatomic View Post
    I heard there are also those people who like older and newer games, without labeling everything new as dumbed down crap or everything old as dusty relics never to be played again. Shocking, I know.
    +1

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  5. #25
    Network Hub Mihkel's Avatar
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    I do agree that independent developers are flourishing now and they bring out good games for what most of them are but not with the budget the publisher backed developers have. So the result is that a bulk of them are very small and in some aspects simplistic games, focusing on a certain part of the gameplay or having stylistic, simple graphics because of budget constraints. Of course there are larger games from indie developers but not enough to make some difference.

    @Yachmenev
    I didn't say that it's innovative. I picked Alan Wake because it's a game that is imaginative and interesting in it's gameplay (use of lighting, how you defeat enemies), storytelling (episodic, giving out plot points beforehand) and setting (Stephen King-esque idyllic small town, layout of levels, giving sense of travel by showing the player landmarks and giving the idea of rough distance traveled). Also it's a game that does not try to appeal to everyone and because of that some people will not like it for one reason or another, but that reason is usually a matter of taste not because the game actually has some badly designed parts in it or massive amount of bugs. The thing with it making a profit, I meant that they made enough money by porting it to PC for it to be worth doing so.

    @Soldant
    Sure you're right on the X3 series example and your argument does hold water but you can't deny that taking out gameplay elements (light/sound meter in SC3, commander/6 man squads in BF2, partially or non-regenerating health for instance) and replacing them with very simple versions of them or just removing them outright (SC: Conviction's retard stealth meter, kill only mode gameplay) doesn't in most cases make the sequel better. Also can you bring any other examples than just X3?

    I don't believe that for a game to be good it has to be innovative and I don't understand why this word is brought into this topic. Also with the nostalgia glasses argument, have you noticed that gaming as a medium has got massively bigger than it was some 10 years ago and that it has attracted a very large number of new gamers who maybe perhaps just do not have the experience with older games and never will have because of the massive technological advancement games have had over the years? I personally do not think that these new gamers are stupid, I think major publishers think they're stupid and so they'll try go out for maximum profit. Although it has been proven time and time again that if a developer makes a game that has good gameplay, is kind of niche and has very nice visual value then it will sell. It won't sell in obscene numbers because it's not everybody's cup of tea but it will sell with the added bonus of a new loyal fanbase.

  6. #26
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihkel View Post
    Of course there are larger games from indie developers but not enough to make some difference.
    Not enough to make them the biggest company, you mean. But why do they need to be the biggest company? If RealTimeWorlds has taught us anything, it's that money doesn't always help.
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  7. #27
    Network Hub Mihkel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Not enough to make them the biggest company, you mean. But why do they need to be the biggest company? If RealTimeWorlds has taught us anything, it's that money doesn't always help.
    I didn't really mean that. What I meant was not enough to set a proper example for others to be more bold.

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihkel View Post
    I didn't really mean that. What I meant was not enough to set a proper example for others to be more bold.
    Okay, so "not enough to make the big companies follow them."

    But you and I both know that should a big company ever take notice, it just buys the indie, strips it of all its IPs, and sacks the rest.

    Personally, I wish there were five more CDProjekts and five more Obsidians and five more Biowares pre-EA buyout, but I'm happy that they yet exist as is.
    Last edited by Nalano; 24-02-2012 at 07:00 PM.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subatomic View Post
    I heard there are also those people who like older and newer games, without labeling everything new as dumbed down crap or everything old as dusty relics never to be played again. Shocking, I know.
    So tell me, Subatomic. Did you read the post I was replying to? No? Didn't think so.

    Badly said.

    -1

  10. #30
    Activated Node MrN's Avatar
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    I've found it to be an issue with both big studios and indies alike. Big studios tend to be more and more risk averse now what with the huge budgets they have, and because they're these big companies they become bigger targets for getting called out on this stuff. I also think that indie studios can be plenty guilty of stagnation as well despite some groups being inclined to look at anything put out by the indie scene as the second coming. A good example is how often I found myself saying, "Oh look, another tower defense game!" when looking at recent indie releases.

    There are fun, interesting games coming out, but I think cynicism has being soaring to new heights with a lot of people. Moreover, I don't think it's necessary to reinvent the wheel for the sake of doing so in the search for fun. I thoroughly enjoyed Kingdom of Amalur, and that is a huge mass of pre-existing gameplay mechanics. Same for Orcs Must Die, Bulletstorm, DoDonPachi, and countless others. They may not be at the forefront of innovation, but the games are a lot of fun.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthile View Post
    The year 14,000,000,000 BC - the super symmetry breaks down, the big bang occurs and the particles that would later become video games emerge from the quark-gluon plasma, thereby marking the decline of video games.
    I was struggling to make sense of this statement until I remembered that it's only in my country that a billion is a thousand million.

  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus DaftPunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Yeah yeah. People who genuinely like older games get branded as nostalgic, while people who like newer games are branded as reasonable and progressive. But have you ever considered that old games might actually be better and that rose-tinted glasses may not apply? Nah. Of course you haven't. Because that would defeat your point, right?

    Wizardy has spoken the truth,again.

  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    *sigh*

    It's actually pretty amazing how often I see people say how X new game is a refreshing change of pace from the 'current stagnant market', when actually that statement is so frequent that it shows all the time new games and concepts are popping up. In fact now more than ever people are able to bring their own creations to the table AND get them delivered by other means than bringing a disc round to a friends house, using more advanced tools than ever. I'm not sure I see how older games back then were any more diverse than they are now.

    Doom is similar to Wolfenstein, Duke Nukem similar to that or Baldurs Gate is similiar to the other Infinity engine RPGs. Success sells and right now the FPS is the most dominant form of genre because that is what is successful right now. The gaming industry is probably the most progressive one out there, where every day someone can download free tools to improve it or change it up. Look at Overgrowth for example, it's just one guy (I think) but he's got some really interesting ideas going on and is able to share them and create them easily thanks to the internet. It's not so easy for a filmmaker or writer to do such a thing as it is for game makers.

    I mean really, apart from those who are all doom and gloom and *do* prefer older games - not I'm not saying rose tinted glasses, because I accept that those games were brilliant - it's pretty easy to see that gamings cup runneth over with new and interesting concepts and ideas.

  14. #34
    Network Hub Mihkel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Okay, so "not enough to make the big companies follow them."

    But you and I both know that should a big company ever take notice, it just buys the indie, strips it of all its IPs, and sacks the rest.

    Personally, I wish there were five more CDProjekts and five more Obsidians and five more Biowares pre-EA buyout, but I'm happy that they yet exist as is.
    Very true but there are examples in major publisher who give free reigns to the developers. Valve for instance who publishes it's own games has hired a lot of indie devs to work under their wing while giving free reign to them. Funny enough Valve's core team has not produced anything since Orange Box but most of their releases are from those formerly indie developers. Another publisher who has that "trust in the devs" off the top of my head is Square Enix with their recent releases like Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Batman Arkham City and Dead Island. But sadly there are too few of them.

  15. #35
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihkel View Post
    Also can you bring any other examples than just X3?
    I can give it a shot, but I can't think of too many games where "streamlining" applies, since I think you need to have a predecessor for "streamlining" to really occur (or an indicator of what a predecessor would have had).
    The removal of most of the inventory in ME2 was overall a positive thing. Does anybody really miss having 25 Lancer I assault rifles? Once you got the Specter weapons everything else was obsolete and pointless, and cash was practically useless given how much stuff you found. That said it did go a bit too far, but it was for the most part a good move. The BF2 Commander mode as I remember it was mostly a hated position rife with abuse, and BF3's removal hasn't really lost anything for the most part. Civ4's massive streamlining was largely hailed as a positive thing, making the numbers and actions a lot easier to understand (unless you love memorising combat statistics I guess). I can't comment on SC: Conviction because I never played it. What other games do you think were negatively impacted by streamlining?

    On the topic of regenerating health: medkits in the middle of nowhere don't make much sense, so I can see how regenerating "health" (maybe they should stop calling it health and something like panic or fatigue) goes partway to solving that issue, but I think it needs to be modified so that health regenerates to a point but also has a depletion limit such that you'd need a medkit or something to replenish it. I know you're not making the "unrealistic" argument about regenerating health, but regenerating health is just as bad as magic medkits that go out of their way to help you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihkel View Post
    I don't believe that for a game to be good it has to be innovative and I don't understand why this word is brought into this topic.
    You're right that a game doesn't have to be innovative to be good, but the topic here is about stagnation and lack of imagination, which does require some innovation. There's plenty of good games out there (yes, even the AAA titles people hate would still classify as 'good' by most standards) but they don't do anything particularly new or advance their genres. Episode 2 is a good game, but it doesn't do anything new.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihkel View Post
    Also with the nostalgia glasses argument, have you noticed that gaming as a medium has got massively bigger than it was some 10 years ago and that it has attracted a very large number of new gamers who maybe perhaps just do not have the experience with older games and never will have because of the massive technological advancement games have had over the years?.
    Yeah I did actually mention that gaming has gotten bigger and as a result we're seeing more "safe" titles in the AAA sector (especially since in the 90s publishers weren't the juggernauts we see today, even EA was small at some point in the past). But this doesn't really change the nostalgia argument; we look back on titles and forgive glaring flaws because of a particular element, but on launch we're often much less kind to the game. That works the opposite way too; we can be wrapped up in a game and then tear it to pieces later on. New gamers might not play old games because they can't get into them, but I don't see what that's got to do with people idolising old games as some sort of superior master race when they clearly did have flaws. It's like people trying to advocate the old DOS days where direct-to-metal coding was more common and if the game didn't support your sound card you didn't get sound at all.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Yeah yeah. People who genuinely like older games get branded as nostalgic, while people who like newer games are branded as reasonable and progressive. But have you ever considered that old games might actually be better and that rose-tinted glasses may not apply? Nah. Of course you haven't. Because that would defeat your point, right?
    The problem is it's often hard to tell. Interface design / HCI has moved on so much in the past 20 years that new games intrinsically feel better than older ones, because the interface just works better with the human brain. The actual game mechanics in older games are often superior or more interesting, but interface issues just make it really hard to tell.

    Along with graphics and sound, it's the one place where clear objective progress has been made over the years.

  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihkel View Post
    Valve for instance who publishes it's own games has hired a lot of indie devs to work under their wing while giving free reign to them.
    Valve, being a private company, is technically an indie.
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  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Along with graphics and sound, it's the one place where clear objective progress has been made over the years.
    Exactly right. Higher resolutions brought superior interfaces, to the point where we complain incessantly about bulky interfaces. And that isn't specific to gaming either, it applies to software in general these days.

  19. #39
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    The games industry has become like every other industry. It used to be a niche market with individuals/small groups free to mostly do what they wanted. Now it's a big business.

    It's the same as movies, books, comics, houses, smartphones, etc... 90% of stuff isn't very innovative or new, but just continues existing trends or builds on what has come before. Not everything can be innovative after all.

    I think now that gaming has gone mainstream it is aiming for different things, and a different audience. More close to hollywood movies where marketing, presentation and accessibility are king.

    But even back in the day we had 90% clones and iterative improvements rather than hundreds of genuinely innovative products - and that's good, as it allowed things to develop and improve. That was more like the UK movie industry - a little more indie and low budget than hollywood, but 90% gangster movies and romantic comedies.

    The SNES was great, but it was 90% platformers. Early games were all adventure game clones, then we had all RTS clones, then we had all FPS clones, then it was all everquest clones, and now we're at all CoD clones.

    It's great that the indie market has opened up now with the web and steam, but even indies can't be innovative all the time. there aren't enough new ideas. Sometimes it's enough to just try and do something really well.

  20. #40
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    There's plenty of innovation. The problem is, games which innovate tend to sink, because it usually takes two or three iterations of an idea before it starts "working". It's rare for a game to be both innovative and good; usually the good game is the one which takes some of the ideas of the innovative games and blends them together in a way which works.

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