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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by measurements View Post
    I can't get my head around it. Note that I'm not trying to be sexist here, I think that anyone with the capabilities for the job is fit for it. My question is then: are female games journalists too often picked for their looks and gender instead of their acumen as journalists, because of the male-heavy target audience?
    Undoubtedly. You'll find the same pattern in a lot of other businesses. With gaming coming from an especially male-dominated background, it'll probably take a while before this goes away. And even then, I can't really think of a lot of women who appear on tv (in general) regularly and aren't at least somewhat attractive.
    Last edited by Stijn; 13-06-2011 at 06:41 PM.

  2. #22
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Vexing Vision's Avatar
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    Fair enough, Bhazor, they sold out. :D

    From what I know is that they used to be an actual "serious" gaming clan before, for a given value of seriousness regarding accepting only girls who'd look good on a photo.
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  3. #23
    Lesser Hivemind Node westyfield's Avatar
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    Hey Ash, Whatcha Playin?'s first E3 video is kinda relevant, but also funny.

  4. #24
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    I find hot women in revealing outfits pleasant to look at.

    Were I at some sort of games convention, they might help draw my eye to something I'd otherwise ignore. They certainly wouldn't impact my opinion of the game. I presume they work, otherwise they wouldn't be hired.

    Never had a problem with bikini armour either. It's a common enough fantasy trope that it doesn't ruin the realism for me, and again, it's pleasant to the eye. On the other hand, I do all my gaming alone, I like to be immersed in a game, so I wouldn't be playing it in front of a girlfriend/friend/parent.

    I'm quite aware you're not meant to say all that, and there are all sorts of issues over sexism in games, putting off potential female gamers, making the industry appear juvenile to non-gamers... but I'm somehow missing whatever gene it is that makes men get hugely offended by it and want to stamp it out.

  5. #25
    Lesser Hivemind Node TillEulenspiegel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    but I'm somehow missing whatever gene it is that makes men get hugely offended by it and want to stamp it out.
    Empathy? Ability to think about the consequences of the objectification of half of humanity?

  6. #26
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    I would say its not bad to like these things if they are the exception to the rule, unfortunately with gaming it basically is the rule so basically it needs to be stamped out of gaming a lot

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    I'm quite aware you're not meant to say all that, and there are all sorts of issues over sexism in games, putting off potential female gamers, making the industry appear juvenile to non-gamers... but I'm somehow missing whatever gene it is that makes men get hugely offended by it and want to stamp it out.
    I wouldn't worry about it, you're definitely in the majority when it comes to gamers.

    As I said, I'm not even going to bother arguing my views, there's far more eloquent folk out there. I will say that I hate most fantasy armour design in general, and chainmail bikinis in particular. That's probably because I quite like good art design in my games.

  8. #28
    Network Hub J.B.'s Avatar
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    I came here for the thread title (brilliant!), stayed for the interesting thoughts.

    I have to hold my hand up and say much as I love boobies, I'd much rather have more realistic armour design in games. Not 100% authentic, just not armour bikinis and stockings etc. (Oh yeah, stockings, I like them too)

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TillEulenspiegel View Post
    Empathy? Ability to think about the consequences of the objectification of half of humanity?
    That's the thing I have a problem with. Objectification. At least in terms of 'booth babes', the women in question basically agree to be objectified in exchange for money. I don't see anything wrong with that. But just because these women are objectified at trade shows does not mean that half of the world's population is being objectified.

    Maybe I put too much faith in people's ability to compartmentalise, but I meet a booth babe on-duty at a trade show, I'll enjoy whatever is on display, be pleasant and polite and go about my business. Do I objectify her? Yes, absolutely. And no, I wouldn't make any attempt to engage with her on a deeper, more human level, as any given trade show is full of guys trying to engage with those girls 'on a deeper, more human level' in the hope that they might have a shot with her later on.

    But then, if I meet that same girl, in an entirely different situation, I would never dream of objectifying her or treating her as anything less than the fully-faceted human being she is. I'm entirely capable of making that distinction and don't see the problem.

    (Before anyone starts telling me about these poor, exploited girls at trade shows who have no choice but to work there, I'd also point out that if you're a stunningly attractive young women, there are plenty of other avenues of work available to you that don't involve posing in skimpy costumes: bar work and waitressing for a start. They probably pay about a tenth of what trade-show modelling does, and won't help with your modelling or acting career, but these women have options.)

    When it's fictional women in games, I care even less. But again, I'm capable of understanding the difference between a collection of polygons which is designed entirely to entertain me (and I find titilation entertaining) and a real woman. I no more expect an actual woman to dress and look like a video game character than I do for her to start walking forwards when I hit the W key.

    That's not to say there aren't wider, more societal problems here that are reflected in gaming, but I see gaming as a reflection of the whole, rather than a medium that is particulary bad at the whole feminism thing.

  10. #30
    http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011...babes-bonanza/

    RPS wins.

    I think your missing the point about female characters in games Deano. I'm not aware of any who get their ideas on how women should be from games, if there are that's a whole different kettle of fish which has nothing to do with me.

    You and others may well get titillated and entertained by big polygon breasts and think that it's a good thing that most characters are designed this way. The point is that it just reconfirms the common perception many have of videogames: that they're designed for teenage boys.

    Not to mention the rubbish and impractical art design that accompanies it. This would be fine if it was the exception rather than the rule. But it isn't.
    Last edited by DainIronfoot; 15-06-2011 at 01:16 PM.

  11. #31
    Network Hub Kablooie's Avatar
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    I will confess to always trying to catch Layla Kayleigh when I had G4TV. Something about her looks and accent riveted me every time; I never got around to wondering about her gaming cred.

    *cough*. OP, your post reminds me of the situation with the NFL and locker room journalists - female ones. IMO, they shouldn't be in there, I don't care how PCorrect it is or not. Then they sue when some annoyed (or interested) player shakes something at them. Makes me wonder . . . . . any cases of male reporters in female locker rooms? I bet not!

    As for chainmail bikini's, I'm a firm supporter of the Female Inverse Armor Law. :)

  12. #32
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    I think we just disagree on the direction of the causality. For me, that sort of imagery in games isn't out of place because of the kinds of stories games tell and experiences games create. Pretty much every Hollywood blockbuster puts the female lead in tight outfits in an attempt to titilate. 'Serious' dramas and more mature films don't.

    Games are exactly the same, except 99% of games fit in the 'blockbuster' mould in terms of quality of writing, story and so on. Once we start making mature games, we'll start getting maturely designed characters. Chainmail bikinis don't look out of place because the games they exist in are so shallow to start with. Getting rid of them won't suddenly make games grow up.

    So while games remain mostly shallow, throwaway experiences, I have no problem with them being sexed-up.

  13. #33
    Ah the sticky subject of sexual objectification (pun fully intended). Rather than risk making a fool of myself by trying to take on a massive issue way beyond my grasp, I'll just leave this link here: http://www.feminisnt.com/2009/freque...s-sex-objects/

    Furry Girl is a sex worker and blogger who writes eloquently on the issue of people criticising her work. I realise it's only tangentially related (I'm not sure if being a booth babe can be called 'sex work'), but since someone mentioned objectification, I figured some people might enjoy reading this perspective on the matter. A quick snippet:

    "Being objectified" by customers is not something that sex workers themselves are railing against as an injustice they seek to overcome. It's a half-baked analysis being imposed upon our work from outsiders- outsiders who presume to tell the world what we experience and how we feel about it, without ever having asked us. That, in and of itself, should tell you a lot about whether or not it's a real problem.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kablooie View Post
    *cough*. OP, your post reminds me of the situation with the NFL and locker room journalists - female ones. IMO, they shouldn't be in there, I don't care how PCorrect it is or not. Then they sue when some annoyed (or interested) player shakes something at them. Makes me wonder . . . . . any cases of male reporters in female locker rooms? I bet not!
    And despite being this thread's designated chauvinist, I disagree entirely on this. A journalist has a job to do and has a right not to be sexually harassed while doing her job. You either let reporters in to locker rooms, or you don't. Frankly I'd go with "don't" as it just sounds daft to me, but clubs want the publicity. But if you do, the laws of common decency aren't suspended just because it's a locker room.

  15. #35
    Deano: I agree entirely on the movie analogy, it's one I tried to draw myself in my previous post but then deleted. But yes, in movies it's certainly more balanced.

    You're right that it wouldn't suddenly make games more mature, but it'd probably be a good start as any. And as I said, it smacks of lazy, clichéd art design which I don't like. You can design an attractive female character without giving her a chest fit for a herd of cows and giving her nothing to wear other than some strategically placed pieces of cloth.

  16. #36
    Lesser Hivemind Node TillEulenspiegel's Avatar
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    Female journalists typically aren't sex workers.

    As predicted, this got depressing fast. Oh well.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by TillEulenspiegel View Post
    Female journalists typically aren't sex workers.

    As predicted, this got depressing fast. Oh well.
    I don't know if that was directed at me or not, but I had the whole 'booth babes' discussion more in mind when I posted the link. Like I said, only tangentially related.

  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Vexing Vision's Avatar
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    Fun story: Promoting either Dirt or Dirt 2 (I can't remember which one it was), Codemasters auditioned for a "Dirty Girl".

    The Gamescom went fine, until a media outlet (I believe it was Kotaku) outed the girl as an... hum... semi-famous actress of particularly dirty movies.

    Instead of just nodding and going with it, Codemasters scrambled for two weeks and tried to distance themselves from this. I think their booth babes are a lot less revealing than before ever since.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DainIronfoot View Post
    Deano: I agree entirely on the movie analogy, it's one I tried to draw myself in my previous post but then deleted. But yes, in movies it's certainly more balanced.

    You're right that it wouldn't suddenly make games more mature, but it'd probably be a good start as any. And as I said, it smacks of lazy, clichéd art design which I don't like. You can design an attractive female character without giving her a chest fit for a herd of cows and giving her nothing to wear other than some strategically placed pieces of cloth.
    True, from an art design point of video it's totally valid. I kind of feel that when a game comes along that is deep enough though, someone will go "hang on this girl looks ridiculous". Actually in The Longest Journey, having the first scene feature the heroine in her skimpy nightwear was somewhat jarring.

    I also get wound up when a game actually give a good go at including a variety of female body types and people still get upset because of one of them has a large bust, as if they don't exist.

  20. #40
    Network Hub Kablooie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    And despite being this thread's designated chauvinist, I disagree entirely on this. A journalist has a job to do and has a right not to be sexually harassed while doing her job. You either let reporters in to locker rooms, or you don't. Frankly I'd go with "don't" as it just sounds daft to me, but clubs want the publicity. But if you do, the laws of common decency aren't suspended just because it's a locker room.
    I agree with you; the solution is a compromise that many would dislike: ban media from the locker room, regardless of gender.

    If I'm a player, I'm tired, spent, and in a bad mood if it was a loss, last thing I need is a reporter, especially female, making rounds in the locker room. Not that I would go out of my way to harass her, but I'm tired, I likely just want to avoid her. Unfortunately heading for the shower sans towel is considered harrassment these days.

    Do I have the pull or right to change lockerroom policy as a player? Highly unlikely. Maybe if I'm Peyton Manning. Some want it as they want more endorsements.

    I understand PCorrectness, but there's also RL. Harrassment doesn't have a firm standard.

    Edit: As for the booth babes, really could care less. If I'm excited about the game, they're actually in the way. Trying to distract me from what I'm really interested in.
    Last edited by Kablooie; 15-06-2011 at 05:15 PM. Reason: booth babes

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