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  1. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by archonsod View Post
    I find it quite amusing you've spent so much time on the Relay thing, when at least one of the endings has you fundamentally changing the nature of life itself. You don't think that might have a bigger impact on galactic civilisation? :P
    Haha, ermm yeah...I think I got *slightly* carried away with the relay thing. :P Had too much free this morning. Might snip it down a bit...a lot.

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    It's hard to have a sensible debate on the matter when the loudest voice on one side of the argument literally want Bioware to go back and re-write it entirely differently.
    I don't see why fixing bugs in the narrative is different to fixing them in the AI or physics. Particularly when Bioware have been retconning important things like the scale and behaviour of Cerberus every time they released a game for no reason at all.

  3. #643
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
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  4. #644
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    It's hard to have a sensible debate on the matter when the loudest voice on one side of the argument literally want Bioware to go back and re-write it entirely differently.
    As I stated earlier in the thread. I don't think it's so much a case that people are unhappy with the endings in terms of the choices, more people are unhappy with the poor quality of the endings in relation to the rest of the game in terms of how they play out. Everything feels a little rushed and abrupt and in need of a bit more consideration. If I was Bioware I'd still keep the choices as they stand, though I'd remove the whole asinine relays blowing up part as that just undermines quite a few world fiction things (namely how all your alien allies get home for starters) and as a consequence I'd also remove the contentous Normandy fleeing & crashing sense sense, and instead see the effects of Shepards decisions play out on earth. I'd also introduce a 4th choice, namely for Shepard to call Hackett on the coms and tell him the crucible is a blow out and either to give the Reapers all they've got (after all they are tough, not invincible) or sound the retreat. How that plays out could be open ended, but I think adds some degree of player agency back into the end. Kind of akin to being able to walk out the door in DX:HR
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
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  5. #645
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    Fallout 3's ending was full of logic holes and narrative issues, and Bethesda released DLC that fixed those issues, so there is a precedent for narrative fixes, post release.

  6. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I'd also introduce a 4th choice, namely for Shepard to call Hackett on the coms and tell him the crucible is a blow out and either to give the Reapers all they've got (after all they are tough, not invincible) or sound the retreat. How that plays out could be open ended, but I think adds some degree of player agency back into the end. Kind of akin to being able to walk out the door in DX:HR
    That's already in, don't choose any of the options and few minutes later the Crucible blows up, and you with it.

  7. #647
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    That's already in, don't choose any of the options and few minutes later the Crucible blows up, and you with it.
    A hidden timer is not quite the same thing as you consciously refusing to drink from any of the poisoned chalices on offer.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 03-04-2012 at 04:33 PM.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
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  8. #648
    http://blog.bioware.com/wp-content/u...+Wallpaper.jpg

    Y'know, I'm gonna start believing Shepard was a zombie all along because of that picture. Time to write up my ME3 Zombification Theory.

    How do you tell if your zombie Shepard is a paragon or renegade? VEEEEEEIIIIIINNNNNS...

  9. #649
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    There is one thing I hated more than the ending in this game ..

    It was your terrible companions. God did they ever suck.


    Still, the ending blew also. It all felt a little phoned in.

  10. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    A hidden timer is not quite the same thing as you consciously refusing to drink from any of the poisoned chalices on offer.
    If you consciously choose not to drink, the crucible blows up. You get to see what happens if you do nothing - I would have liked it to be a proper ending though, just see the Reapers blow up earth and the rest of the galaxy. It would have stopped a lot of the 'my Shepard wouldn't pick anything' complaining.

    And the hidden timer is signficant, as there's a fuck-ton of 'urgent' events throughout the game, none of which are on a timer. Except for that one. It was put in with a certain intent, and I really think that intent was to cater to players that didn't want to make Sophie's choice.

  11. #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthBenedict View Post
    I don't see why fixing bugs in the narrative is different to fixing them in the AI or physics.
    Because you can objectively point to bugs in the code (i.e. doesn't work as intended), whereas the quality of the narrative is entirely subjective, thus your opinion on it is no more valid than that of the guy who wrote it.

  12. #652
    Activated Node Sinderlin's Avatar
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    A well done long-form analysis of the ending in the perspective of the whole trilogy and conventions of the sci-fi genre:


  13. #653
    Has anyone gone back to playing Skyrim after finishing ME3?

    While Skyrim is a superb game, it evokes few emotions while playing. Looking at my Skyrim quest list "deliver x to y," "retrieve family heirloom," it all seems a little bland and empty after moments in ME3 such as Mordin's self sacrifice or Tali's suicide.

  14. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by archonsod View Post
    Because you can objectively point to bugs in the code (i.e. doesn't work as intended), whereas the quality of the narrative is entirely subjective
    We can talk about broken narrative just as we can analyze broken game design. Things like logical inconsistencies and plot holes aren't really subjective. Saying "I liked it" or "it was fun" doesn't invalidate demonstrable problems.

  15. #655
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Blah, some games have broken mechanisms and I love them (Alpha Protocol, Deus ex, Homeworld) just as some games have but stupid stories or more topically stupid twists and I love them. Enjoyment is subjective but also the subject of the media in question.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  16. #656
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    Just finished the game. Great game, great series for that matter, crap ending. Endings matter and this one left me feeling what was the point of my actions. It took the rpg out and put the fps in.

    I was kinda expecting a tragic heroic end, where i saw all my companions (because thats what they were, i chose my companions based on how i liked them not combat effectiveness) get killed by my side as i saved (or didn't) the galaxy. I'm sure there were plenty of other briliant possibilities. Recoloured explosions and Joker/Normandy abandoning me in the final battle - meh.

    So long and thanks for the fish. I won't be back but it was good whilst it lasted.

  17. #657
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkdawson View Post
    We can talk about broken narrative just as we can analyze broken game design. Things like logical inconsistencies and plot holes aren't really subjective. Saying "I liked it" or "it was fun" doesn't invalidate demonstrable problems.
    Every plot-hole can be explained though. That someone doesn't like the explanation is subjective.

    It comes down to authorial intent again. Bugs are things that were never meant to be in the game, that's different to the ending, which was intended to be that way, even if that decision was a bad one. Sometimes second printings of books fix 'bugs' where there's a typo or a contradiction in how a character is described. I can't think of a reprint where the whole ending was changed.

  18. #658
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkdawson View Post
    We can talk about broken narrative just as we can analyze broken game design. Things like logical inconsistencies and plot holes aren't really subjective. Saying "I liked it" or "it was fun" doesn't invalidate demonstrable problems.

    The internet is literally full of people discussing plot holes and inconsistencies so objectivity is clearly a nebulous concept here. Still I was all set to disagree entirely, but then I looked at the analogy of editing a book/film/etc as 'patching'. And cinema definitely sets a precedent for alternate endings added/cut and then reintroducing them. Brasil springs to mind...

    Still I think theres only so far you can take this. Logical inconsistencies and plot holes aren't exactly objective as one person's plot hole can be inferred by another reader. Case in point, the Mass Relays here. People are divided on if they exploded or not - I inferred from the dialogue and the video that they just deactivated each other rather than wipe out every major system in the galaxy. Many others disagree and its impossible to discount the argument that the last time a mass relay was destroyed, it wiped out a system. Even if Bioware were to say exactly which they intended, it's not necessarily something that has to be explained in the text itself or be counted as an objective error.

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Every plot-hole can be explained though. That someone doesn't like the explanation is subjective.

    It comes down to authorial intent again. Bugs are things that were never meant to be in the game, that's different to the ending, which was intended to be that way, even if that decision was a bad one. Sometimes second printings of books fix 'bugs' where there's a typo or a contradiction in how a character is described. I can't think of a reprint where the whole ending was changed.
    Sometimes game mechanics work as intended but don't turn out as enjoyable as expected, or possibly open up forms of play which ruin everyone elses fun in a multiplayer. Players are usually quite happy when such things are changed, so why is the narrative different?

    Why does something rushed out in the minute by highly stressed, sleep deprived writers become an immutable piece of high art?

  20. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthBenedict View Post
    Sometimes game mechanics work as intended but don't turn out as enjoyable as expected, or possibly open up forms of play which ruin everyone elses fun in a multiplayer. Players are usually quite happy when such things are changed, so why is the narrative different?
    Because those are unintended consequences. The parallel in this case of players abusing mechanics would be players mis-interpreting the ending. In which case offering clarification might be a good thing. Which is what is happening.

    Why does something rushed out in the minute by highly stressed, sleep deprived writers become an immutable piece of high art?
    Why doesn't it? And that's a fairly bold assumption.

    Nevertheless, if that were the case, then the impetus for improving the ending would come from the writers, not the consumers.

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