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  1. #21
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus DaftPunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doesn'tmeananything View Post
    Yeah, only videogames are nothing like films and are defined by interactivity.

    Where did all this tripe come from anyway? Cheaters, seriously? Not only a minor part of players would do that, how would that even bother the developer? If he understands that games are systems and mechanics that the player interacts with, why he would so be against releasing his game on a more open platform just to deny some people the possibility to interact with the game the way they want (and spoiling it in the process, sure, but whatever).

    And it's a third-person action game which is about exploring and combat with carefully timed attacks. How could that not be easily translated to keyboard and mouse? And without ruining 'the designer vision'?

    Like, am I being trolled here?

    Dude really wrote biggest pile of shit i read in a while :D

  2. #22
    Because it allows you to move directionally, at different speed, than all or nothing keyboard movements, thus it is more precise than wasd. Precision and movement and timing is basically 9/10ths of Dark Souls.
    Not buying it. This game does not need that level of precision which, if anything, is possible to produce only in non-combat situations, as a thumb is hardly an accurate tool in hectic scenarios. I can't really see how having basic eight directions, bind-able walking key and a very, very precise camera movement does not totally substitute a gamepad or even provide much more overall control over the character.

  3. #23
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jockie's Avatar
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    You need more than two movement speeds just for the trapped areas.

    Anyways, have you actually played the game? I think you need to trust someone who has, that it is really unsuited to M&KB, in the same way a lot of console games are. I don't know why you find this so utterly incomprehensible.
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  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Vexing Vision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jockie View Post
    It's not that difficult to understand that if a game is designed very specifically around a certain control input, that it doesn't always translate well to another.

    Try playing fifa on a keyboard, or street fighter.
    Well.. when I was playing SF4 on the computer with keyboard, I did reasonably well with everything but Zangief and Guile. 360 degrees are too painful on arrow keys, everything else was a doozy.

    And "Hmm, we don't want to sell you our games because we don't want your money because you might ruin the gameplay experience for yourself" is a pretty silly argument.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jockie View Post
    You need more than two movement speeds just for the trapped areas.

    Anyways, have you actually played the game? I think you need to trust someone who has, that it is really unsuited to M&KB, in the same way a lot of console games are. I don't know why you find this so utterly incomprehensible.
    I just want you to back-up your initial argument.

    If it's the movement speed now, have the third key. Or make it so that the player can toggle it with the mouse wheel by scrolling through different modes.

    It's not a fighting game nor is it a football simulator. The control scheme can indeed be adapted to the strengths of keyboard and mouse. I don't know why you find this so utterly incomprehensible.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Namdrol View Post
    Imagine if modders could change Citizen Kane because they wanted to see Susan Alexander's vagina? Or 8 1/2 because it was too hard to understand?
    Horrendous! It's certainly a good thing it's totally impossible for anyone to modify Citizen Kane to subvert the films original intent.

    EDIT: Oh, beaten. I should have read further before posting.
    Last edited by JackShandy; 08-03-2012 at 02:30 PM.

  7. #27
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Berzee's Avatar
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    I'm not going to watch Citizen Kane until they port it to the PC.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Berzee View Post
    I'm not going to watch Citizen Kane until they port it to the PC.
    Yeah, well, I hope you will enjoy your dumbed-down-vagina-riddled-altered-director's-vision version!

  9. #29
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jockie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doesn'tmeananything View Post
    If it's the movement speed now, have the third key. Or make it so that the player can toggle it with the mouse wheel by scrolling through different modes.
    Like, am I being trolled here?

    Because having three buttons for movement speed modifier, in a game already overloaded with controls is a brilliant idea.

    I just read the first post you made again about the cheaters and players being able to modify the game to their own playstyle. The major problem with that is that the game is designed to always be online, if you're cheating the game you're cheating other players too. The multi-player integration is acore part of the experience (not to be viewed as a seperate 'mode')
    Last edited by Jockie; 08-03-2012 at 02:45 PM.
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  10. #30
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jockie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexing Vision View Post
    Well.. when I was playing SF4 on the computer with keyboard, I did reasonably well with everything but Zangief and Guile. 360 degrees are too painful on arrow keys, everything else was a doozy.

    And "Hmm, we don't want to sell you our games because we don't want your money because you might ruin the gameplay experience for yourself" is a pretty silly argument.

    I wasn't making the second arguement at all, I just think there are some pretty big problems with porting to do with the strange/innovative design decisions made by From Soft, such as always online integration, with interaction limited to in-game gestures (in the 360, if you try to use voice chat to speak to another player useing the party features on Dashboard, the game kicks you to main menu - that kind of thing is entirely impossible on PC), these things are clearly design features (or in some ways anti-features - you're not going to put it on the back of the box * Communication with other plays, limited to MINIMAL interaction!! *), so that the developer can present their vision in an uncompromising way, that simply isn't possible on PC.

    That doesn't mean they shouldn't attempt it, but for people arguing it's a very simple thing to do and they should democratise an experience the designers have gone to a lot of effort to keep 'pure' (see above eg), simplifies things a bit.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Jockie View Post
    Like, am I being trolled here?

    Because having three buttons for movement speed modifier, in a game already overloaded with controls is a brilliant idea.

    I just read the first post you made again about the cheaters and players being able to modify the game to their own playstyle. The major problem with that is that the game is designed to always be online, if you're cheating the game you're cheating other players too. The multi-player integration is acore part of the experience (not to be viewed as a seperate 'mode')
    Psh, so first you're saying that it's the controls (and failing to provide any reasonable argument in that regard - really, a mechanically simple third-person action game suddenly puts kb/m controls, that is, huge number of keys and a high level of precision, in am impasse), now it's the everlasting cheaters again. Is it entirely impossible to put an anti-cheat system in this primarily single-player game? There's a rigid control over who may join your game anyway, so if it checks a players level, couldn't it check the stats as well? Or, with enough thought put into it, couldn't the more comprehensive protection system be created?

  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Berzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jockie View Post
    interaction limited to in-game gestures...simply isn't possible on PC.
    http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012...ctor-2012-way/
    Last edited by Berzee; 08-03-2012 at 03:14 PM.
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  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jockie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doesn'tmeananything View Post
    Psh, so first you're saying that it's the controls (and failing to provide any reasonable argument in that regard - really, a mechanically simple third-person action game suddenly puts kb/m controls, that is, huge number of keys and a high level of precision, in am impasse), now it's the everlasting cheaters again. Is it entirely impossible to put an anti-cheat system in this primarily single-player game? There's a rigid control over who may join your game anyway, so if it checks a players level, couldn't it check the stats as well? Or, with enough thought put into it, couldn't the more comprehensive protection system be created?
    Primarily single-player?

    As I said above, the MP is a core part of the game - there are like 50 editorial articles (by professional journalists, not fan-scrubs like me) arguing that the MP in Dark Souls makes the whole damn game.

    And yes the latter suggestion is possible, but it's not sounding much like a straightforward port at this point, it's sounding like something where the team who created the game would have to overhaul a lot of their core systems for a port they never planned to make.

    If you cared to you could circumvent any in game feature like that, using one of hundreds of third-party programmes on PC.
    Last edited by Jockie; 08-03-2012 at 03:16 PM.
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  14. #34
    Lesser Hivemind Node Kaira-'s Avatar
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    WAY doesn't exclude Steam chat or Skype or whatchamacallits, now does it?

  15. #35
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Berzee's Avatar
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    Don't forget
    http://indiegames.com/2012/03/gdc_20...was_desig.html
    for non-verbal communication.

    Kaira -- no, but I'm talking about in-game means of communication, because anything outside of the game is hardly preventable no matter what platform you're playing on. Because...

    If you cared to you could circumvent any in game feature like that, using one of hundreds of third-party programmes on PC.
    Obviously. And you could also still use your PC to do that while you're playing Dark Souls on the console. But I grant you that it's entirely impossible to prevent people from using the built-in Chat on PC because PC doesn't have a singular built-in Chat to begin with. You would need to collaborate with your friends in real life in order to be able to communicate with them while playing, as opposed to consoles where it's easily set up and just as easily disabled. So unless Dark Souls has some special "banning-people-from-talking-in-real-life" mode that only works on consoles...

    Anyhow, I just gave you two very good examples of PC games whose main draw in non-verbal communication and who haven't seemed to have their "artistic vision" mauled by rampaging Skypes. It's been a good day's work, and I am going to find some unsweetened vending machine tea.

    (edit: It occurs to me, too, that "DUMPED TO MAIN MENU" hardly seems like an elegant and beautiful component of any artistic vision I've ever heard of, unless it's one of those meta-computer-games that plays tricks on you).
    Last edited by Berzee; 08-03-2012 at 03:29 PM.
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  16. #36
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jockie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berzee View Post
    Don't forget
    http://indiegames.com/2012/03/gdc_20...was_desig.html
    for non-verbal communication.

    Kaira -- no, but I'm talking about in-game means of communication, because anything outside of the game is hardly preventable no matter what platform you're playing on. Because...



    Obviously. And you can still use your PC to do that while you're playing Dark Souls on the console. It's entirely impossible to prevent people from using the built-in Chat on PC because PC doesn't have the built-in Chat to begin with.
    Yeah, but it's a damn sight easier to do on PC (not everyone is going to have their 360 right next a PC). The fact is they put a barrier in front of you, to stop you doing this to try and maintain this isolating atmospheric experience, and I'd imagine the vast majority of DS players go along with that on the consoleboxes. On Pc, because it's so much easier to circumvent and impossible (and undesirable) for the game to block off external applications, they might as well not even try.

    Anyway, I'm coming off very negative here : I'd actually love to see DS on PC, it deserves a proper framerate and I'd be very interested to see if the PC community give us some kind of Arena mode (wishful thinking). I just don't think it's as simple a port as people are making out and for all the 'This game belongs on PC!' (because of it's difficulty), it's actually taken console limitations and turned them into strengths in ways that wouldn't necessarily translate.
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Jockie View Post
    Primarily single-player?

    As I said above, the MP is a core part of the game - there are like 50 editorial articles (by professional journalists, not fan-scrubs like me) arguing that the MP in Dark Souls makes the whole damn game.
    So tell me, did you buy the game because you can occasionally play with and fight random people, or because of the freedom of exploration, interesting take on combat and a certain level of difficulty?

    And yes the latter suggestion is possible, but it's not sounding much like a straightforward port at this point, it's sounding like something where the team who created the game would have to overhaul a lot of their core systems for a port they never planned to make.
    I think it's okay when people want to pay for that?

  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Berzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jockie View Post
    Anyway, I'm coming off very negative here : I'd actually love to see DS on PC
    And I am coming off very defensive for a game I don't even actually want to play ^__^ I'm just at work with no work to do...

    I just think nonverbal communication games work fine on computers...and that not everyone or even a majority of people who play them choose to voluntarily spoil the fun.
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  19. #39
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jockie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doesn'tmeananything View Post
    So tell me, did you buy the game because you can occasionally play with and fight random people, or because of the freedom of exploration, interesting take on combat and a certain level of difficulty?



    I think it's okay when people want to pay for that?
    I'm not sure why you're attributing opinions to me, that I haven't gone close to expressing. Of course it's alright if people want to pay for that, but we were originally talking about the viability of the port occuring and the more difficulty in the port and the more parts of the game that simply don't translate, the less likely it becomes. If 80,000 signatures on a petiton = 80,000 sales (it doesn't, but that's what they have to gauge interest), then it probably isn't going to be worth their while (whereas if it were a straightforward port perhaps it would be.).
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  20. #40
    Here's my idea for a control scheme:

    Light Attack: Tap Left Mouse
    Heavy Attack: Hold Left Mouse
    Shield Bash: Tap Right Mouse
    Block: Hold Right Mouse
    Dodge: Space
    Sprint: Shift
    Magic: E
    Item: Q
    Lock-on: Tab
    Move: WASD

    I'm probably forgetting something. It's true that it has a fairly complex control setup but I don't think it's impossible to make an efficient keyboard adaptation. We could even get rid of the lock on and just map the camera control to the mouse.
    Last edited by Reinhardt; 08-03-2012 at 05:17 PM.

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