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  1. #61
    Lesser Hivemind Node Scumbag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhazor View Post
    And Square Enix.
    And Sega.
    And Konami.
    Japanese developed games, not former Eidos etc... studio's works.

  2. #62
    Lesser Hivemind Node Drinking with Skeletons's Avatar
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    Dark Souls was so difficult that it killed the exploratory aspect for me. There's a difference between "dangerous" and "you will die repeatedly in this section because, by God, we will kill you, period, just don't even try to avoid it." I probably would've forgiven the game more if the combat had at least been engaging; if it had played like Kingdoms of Amalur or something, I'd probably have no complaints, but the fact that it's not even fun on a minute-to-minute basis is a real kick in the teeth.

    In short, I'd love a mod that created a true Easy-mode for wusses like me who aren't given much hope of ever seeing much that the game has to offer.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Drinking with Skeletons View Post
    Dark Souls was so difficult that it killed the exploratory aspect for me. There's a difference between "dangerous" and "you will die repeatedly in this section because, by God, we will kill you, period, just don't even try to avoid it." I probably would've forgiven the game more if the combat had at least been engaging; if it had played like Kingdoms of Amalur or something, I'd probably have no complaints, but the fact that it's not even fun on a minute-to-minute basis is a real kick in the teeth.

    In short, I'd love a mod that created a true Easy-mode for wusses like me who aren't given much hope of ever seeing much that the game has to offer.
    Kingdoms of Amalur could be beaten without taking a hit in almost every section of every difficulty on an initial playthrough. Dark Souls is a cautious game that urges you to take your time and observe your environment before you proceed. It isn't mechanically difficult to succeed if you understand how the enemies behave. I think maybe there's a happy medium between the two extremes but Amalur is an experience I'd rather not repeat.

  4. #64
    Network Hub Namdrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frightlever View Post
    They can. Video-editing is relatively simple these days. I assume you've seen the Star Wars episodes 1-3 that don't mention Jar Jar, or at least heard of them.
    Nope.

    My point was that some creative people want to maintain control over how people experience their output, not that it wasn't technically possible to hacknslash or mashup some video files. You know, like artists with this kind of attitude: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKiIroiCvZ0 , who actually get pissed when their work degraded or altered.

    But whatever, I was only speculating. Maybe Dark Souls guy doesn't give a rat's ass & there is no such thing as an uncompromising visionary videogame auteur who wants to ensure that anyone who plays his game experiences it exactly the way he intended.

    It'd be too bad though, as creative products designed by committee and based entirely on market research are always milquetoast and quickly forgotten.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Namdrol View Post
    Maybe Dark Souls guy doesn't give a rat's ass & there is no such thing as an uncompromising visionary videogame auteur who wants to ensure that anyone who plays his game experiences it exactly the way he intended.
    He shouldn't and there isn't. What you've described can never be a game.

    It'd be too bad though, as creative products designed by committee and based entirely on market research are always milquetoast and quickly forgotten.
    Yeah, why there can't be a creative lead that is supported and challenged by other people in his or her team? That's how most games are made, isn't it.

  6. #66
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bhazor's Avatar
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    If you think interactivity or immersive gameplay ruins what you're making then you have no place making computer games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Namdrol View Post
    It'd be too bad though, as creative products designed by committee and based entirely on market research are always milquetoast and quickly forgotten.
    I'm sure Valve would have something to say about that.

  7. #67
    Network Hub Namdrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhazor View Post
    If you think interactivity or immersive gameplay ruins what you're making then you have no place making computer games.
    ?? Are you intentionally being obtuse. & I don't make computer games.


    I'm sure Valve would have something to say about that.
    I don't think Mr. Valve cares.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doesn'tmeananything View Post
    He shouldn't and there isn't. What you've described can never be a game.
    ?? A game wherein the player cannot mod things, cheat etc.? like, oh idk, both Souls games?

    Yeah, why there can't be a creative lead that is supported and challenged by other people in his or her team? That's how most games are made, isn't it.
    so what. Most movies are made that way too, that doesn't mean there isn't room for the odd uncompromising visionary.

    Anyway, I'm done with this thread as I like discussions, not attacks. cheers.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Namdrol View Post
    ?? A game wherein the player cannot mod things, cheat etc.? like, oh idk, both Souls games?
    So you claim that there are two types of games: absolutely linear affairs, where everything is dictated by the designer, and, hilariously, the same kind of thing, but which you can mod and cheat in?

    Dark Souls is a game with elaborately done world, that you can tackle in many ways through exploration and multifaceted combat system. No designer, 'visionary' or 'auteur' guides you, he just made sure that there's a cohesive system of elements with which the player can freely interact. And that's the beauty of it. By means of the game, the player creates his own experience. It shouldn't matter if someone decides to put in a mod or cheat.

    so what. Most movies are made that way too, that doesn't mean there isn't room for the odd uncompromising visionary.
    So there's a room in that, um, paradigm of yours between rigidly constructed gaming experience (but there's no actual game there) and a faceless group of people trying to appeal to everybody. It's an irrelevant approach to game design, though, including my example. What's important is the understanding of emergence, player agency, just interactivity, for crying out loud, and making those a major part of the game.

    You, however, keep comparing games to movies and think of developers as directors. That's not what the games medium is about.

  9. #69
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jnx's Avatar
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    I watched a video review of Dark Souls to find out what's all this about. The game looked rather poor both in graphics and gameplay, and had terrible voice acting. Can someone enlighten me about why this is significant?
    Read more here (On hold) or on Twitter! Occasional impressions on random sim games.

  10. #70
    Lesser Hivemind Node Flint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnx View Post
    Can someone enlighten me about why this is significant?
    Because it's hard and punishing, apparently.
    Give me steam and how you feel to make it real.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by jnx View Post
    The game looked rather poor... in graphics..., and had terrible voice acting.
    Irrelevant.

    ...
    and gameplay
    What, not enough visceral cinematic immersive gritty action to it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flint View Post
    Because it's hard and punishing, apparently.
    It rewards patience and thoughtful approach and does not assume that the player is a cretin.

  12. #72
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jnx's Avatar
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    I'm sensing a defensive tone there. It wasn't my intention to attack your beloved game. Watching the gametrailers review of it, I couldn't find anything special in it, and your post really didn't help me either. Would of course try it out of curiosity if it ever found it's way on to pc.
    Read more here (On hold) or on Twitter! Occasional impressions on random sim games.

  13. #73
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bhazor's Avatar
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    I watched a video review of Deus Ex to find out what's all the fuss was about. The game looked rather poor both in graphics and gameplay, and had terrible voice acting. Can someone enlighten me about why this is significant?

    My point about Valve was that their games are almost entirely driven by commitees, think tanks and market research. That doesn't seem to automatically ruin their games now does it?

    Aside
    In my last post immersive gameplay should read emergent gameplay.

    It turns out that it is I who is the cretin.
    Last edited by Bhazor; 11-03-2012 at 12:36 PM.

  14. #74
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus DaftPunk's Avatar
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    Whats with the people on this board,its like you started gaming on pc few years ago. Asking what makes Deus Ex special,not knowing what Unreal/UT is..jeez.
    ... I take the lives of a few to protect the lives of many. I commit acts of war to preserve the greater peace. I take no joy in killing, but make no mistake; I'll do what needs to be done. Because it's my job. It's my duty. My name is Sam Fisher, and I am a Splinter Cell.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by jnx View Post
    I'm sensing a defensive tone there. It wasn't my intention to attack your beloved game. Watching the gametrailers review of it, I couldn't find anything special in it, and your post really didn't help me either. Would of course try it out of curiosity if it ever found it's way on to pc.
    It was more of a bewilderment on the fact that you, for some reason, added visuals and voice acting into equation of a good game.

    And I've, along with some people here, already mentioned a couple of times in this thread what I think are the great features of the game. As to the gametrailers (heh) review - all you do is pretty much just fight, and it may look unexciting for someone who's not familiar with the system, the rules of the game, but to disregard it based simply on that is kind of silly.

    Oh, and don't paint me a rabid fanboy, good God.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaftPunk View Post
    Whats with the people on this board,its like you started gaming on pc few years ago. Asking what makes Deus Ex special,not knowing what Unreal/UT is..jeez.
    Look.

    I mean.

    Nothing witty comes to mind. Help!
    Last edited by Doesn'tmeananything; 11-03-2012 at 01:10 PM.

  16. #76
    Network Hub Namdrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doesn'tmeananything View Post
    So you claim that there are two types of games: absolutely linear affairs, where everything is dictated by the designer, and, hilariously, the same kind of thing, but which you can mod and cheat in?

    Dark Souls is a game with elaborately done world, that you can tackle in many ways through exploration and multifaceted combat system. No designer, 'visionary' or 'auteur' guides you, he just made sure that there's a cohesive system of elements with which the player can freely interact. And that's the beauty of it. By means of the game, the player creates his own experience. It shouldn't matter if someone decides to put in a mod or cheat.



    So there's a room in that, um, paradigm of yours between rigidly constructed gaming experience (but there's no actual game there) and a faceless group of people trying to appeal to everybody. It's an irrelevant approach to game design, though, including my example. What's important is the understanding of emergence, player agency, just interactivity, for crying out loud, and making those a major part of the game.

    You, however, keep comparing games to movies and think of developers as directors. That's not what the games medium is about.
    Thanks for the non-aggro, albeit condescending, reply.

    First, I have no paradigm.

    Second, what I'm talking about is extra-game player interaction, not in-game. It has nothing whatsoever to do with linearity or dictating what a player does in game. What I'm trying to get across is that maybe a designer might not want the carefully constructed "cohesive system of elements with which the player can freely interact" tampered with (cheats, mods, ad hoc control schemes, etc.). All the effort and vision that went into making " a game with elaborately done world, that you can tackle in many ways through exploration and multifaceted combat system" is the vision I'm talking about.

    Third, as to whether "It shouldn't matter if someone decides to put in a mod or cheat.", 'should' is kinda irrelevant. What matters is what the person who owns the IP wants done with it. If that person doesn't want to see the game adulterated, then that is their prerogative.

  17. #77
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bhazor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaftPunk View Post
    Asking what makes Deus Ex special,not knowing what Unreal/UT is..jeez.
    .... sarcasm is a lost art.

    @Namdrol

    Ahh I misunderstood. With all the movie alusions I thought you were protecting linearity at the expense of player freedom. My apologies.

    But really its a moot point. It is very easy to prevent modding and there are already cheats and cracks for the console versions.
    Last edited by Bhazor; 11-03-2012 at 01:31 PM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Namdrol View Post
    Second, what I'm talking about is extra-game player interaction, not in-game. It has nothing whatsoever to do with linearity or dictating what a player does in game. What I'm trying to get across is that maybe a designer might not want the carefully constructed "cohesive system of elements with which the player can freely interact" tampered with (cheats, mods, ad hoc control schemes, etc.). All the effort and vision that went into making " a game with elaborately done world, that you can tackle in many ways through exploration and multifaceted combat system" is the vision I'm talking about.

    Third, as to whether "It shouldn't matter if someone decides to put in a mod or cheat.", 'should' is kinda irrelevant. What matters is what the person who owns the IP wants done with it. If that person doesn't want to see the game adulterated, then that is their prerogative.
    Constant 'but movies!' did throw your point off a bit. Still, no one's going to re-release -officially - a game with a permanent invincibility mode or weaponry modded into cooking utensils. Good game design will unconditionally be enjoyed by the player, but the great thing about our open platform, the ability to put a new thing in or change something way beyond the designer's intent and see how it interacts with other elements of the system, must never be taken away. I doubt it's unintentional that every good developer doesn't have a problem with that.

  19. #79
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jnx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhazor View Post
    I watched a video review of Deus Ex to find out what's all the fuss was about. The game looked rather poor both in graphics and gameplay, and had terrible voice acting. Can someone enlighten me about why this is significant?
    As an analog this is just silly. Deus Ex came out in the year 2000 and was rather fancy at that time, and still you couldn't make that claim of the gameplay. Dark Souls seems to have come out last year.
    Read more here (On hold) or on Twitter! Occasional impressions on random sim games.

  20. #80
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jnx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doesn'tmeananything View Post
    but to disregard it based simply on that is kind of silly.
    When did I disregard it? Asking what makes a game special can hardly be called disregarding it.
    Read more here (On hold) or on Twitter! Occasional impressions on random sim games.

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