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  1. #1201
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LTK's Avatar
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    Insta-bought, one reason for which is to support the return of multi-platform-ness and DRM-free-osity. Another reason is Legend of Grimrock.

    Wait. Now I have two versions of Legend of Grimrock, one bundle and one direct-from-dev. Uhhh.
    Last edited by LTK; 19-12-2012 at 11:31 PM.

  2. #1202
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Another Humble Bundle where I actively don't want to own the BTA games, at all. They are both exactly what I don't want from a game, well, okay thats more aimed at dungeon defenders but I'm really not sold on Grimrock, so its a Roguelike, that's real time, but constrained by the "hired guns/space hullk" type movement principles... Ugh, maybe I should try it.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  3. #1203
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    Grimrock is a brilliant take on the Dungeon Master formula - it's only fault is that it's forgotten it's supposed to be fun/entertaining and not punish the player (games have moved on since that was the norm).

    As such, you'll almost certainly quit in disgust a few times - it really does like fucking-you-off - I gave up entirely in the end, it just seemed to go out of it's way to be mean spirited.

  4. #1204
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    @trjp Right, 1c under the average it is. I don't play games to suffer.. Much.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  5. #1205
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    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    Yes most games in the bundle have demos, but the games he was asking about are alpha. I tried the ISR "demo" myself and the controls were wooden. Also, no audio.
    The Recruits demo is a classic example of something they'd have been better-off not releasing IMO - all it tells me is they've made something in UDK where I can shoot chickens...

    There's NO instructions whatsoever - it's impossible to gauge anything beyond "you can move and shoot things" - it's like releasing a driving games with 1 car, 1 track and no accelerator...

    Demos are important - releasing them when there's a game inside them is quite wise tho :)

  6. #1206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    @trjp Right, 1c under the average it is. I don't play games to suffer.. Much.
    Suffer is the right word - it just fundamentally misjudged how much effort I'm willing to put into a game. I'm sure other people won't mind but I like the OPTION of having a tough challenge or just an enjoyable experience - enjoyable isn't a work in the developer's dictionary methinks :)

  7. #1207
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    Suffer is the right word - it just fundamentally misjudged how much effort I'm willing to put into a game. I'm sure other people won't mind but I like the OPTION of having a tough challenge or just an enjoyable experience - enjoyable isn't a work in the developer's dictionary methinks :)
    I like games what force me to go "buh?" often stealth games or turn based games where you are not being oppressed while you try and solve it.

    But everything I heard about GrimRock makes it sound like great technology and terrible design/balance.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  8. #1208
    Lesser Hivemind Node internetonsetadd's Avatar
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    Not my experience with Grimrock at all. Of the RPGs I played that were released this year, it's the one I enjoyed the most.

  9. #1209
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Where are you hearing all this nonsense about Grimrock? Perhaps you've been reading reviews of the user-created content?

  10. #1210
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by internetonsetadd View Post
    Not my experience with Grimrock at all. Of the RPGs I played that were released this year, it's the one I enjoyed the most.
    When someone can offer a lengthy explanation why they dislike something, and another person states simply "they liked it", its hard to not side with the explanation.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  11. #1211
    Lesser Hivemind Node internetonsetadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    When someone can offer a lengthy explanation why they dislike something, and another person states simply "they liked it", its hard to not side with the explanation.
    Do not care whether or not you play it.

  12. #1212
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by internetonsetadd View Post
    Do not care whether or not you play it.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  13. #1213
    Lesser Hivemind Node internetonsetadd's Avatar
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    Ha. Okay. The only time I feel compelled to write in detail about how I feel about a game here is when that game hasn't already gotten a lot of attention and achieved a relatively stable consensus. I did that recently for Don't Starve and Miner Wars 2081, and I probably said more than anyone cared to read. But I'll play, if you want.

    Part of why I enjoyed Grimrock so much comes down to nostalgia, which probably isn't worth talking about, but few RPGs seem to wrap you up in foreboding tone the way the old dungeon crawlers did, with increasingly dank corridors, evil presences, and scawy traps. None of, say, Bethesda's games have ever replicated this experience, and I've installed plenty of mods to force them to try, at least cosmetically. The only modern-ish title that really has, prior to Grimrock, was Arx Fatalis. Grimrock kind of cheats by just duplicating an old style of game, but I'll look the other way if it means playing something good. So there's that.

    I really have no idea what trjp is talking about re: suffering. I didn't suffer. So I merely offered my experience with the game as a counterpoint to the suggestion that "enjoyable isn't a [word] in the developer's dictionary." Grimrock is a hostile place; that's the game--and the sub-genre. However, I generally found the game design to be fairly simple: just what you need to accomplish just the things you need to do, no extraneous fluff. There were points in the game that were fairly difficult, and a couple puzzles I had to google to solve. Still, any frustration I experienced felt, to me, like in-game frustration, the frustration of my condemned party desperately searching the halls of a dungeon for that thing I must have missed that would make solving a given puzzle so simple.

    The combat has been criticized--too hard to face enemies without attack-and-retreat tactics, and too easy otherwise. While combat certainly isn't its best feature, I think the game was designed with attack-and-retreat in mind, often placing you in certain situations that made it a challenge as a way of balancing how easy it was to take on lone enemies in large rooms.

    Also, it's not a roguelike.

    I still don't care whether you play the game or not. I'm not really interested in winning hearts and minds on this. IMO, it's an easy game to like if you've played and enjoyed games prior to the late 90s, not one that requires pages of debate on its merits and faults.
    Last edited by internetonsetadd; 20-12-2012 at 06:26 AM.

  14. #1214
    Oh. Oh, Grimrock.

    My third favourite game of the year, but also the only game from which I ragequit permanently. We are through, Grimrock and I. It betrayed me and I will not try to finish it. But fool that I am I'll always still love it.

    Just past 2/3 of the way through (at least, on highest difficulty), it becomes obvious that the developers simply ran out of ideas for challenging you, and resorted to spamming monsters and having the game break its own rules. There are a couple of points specifically that actually feel disrespectful. By around level 10, I think, the level designers went in my mind from devious scamps who love the genre to hamfisted shitheads who just don't like people.

    And yet... those first two thirds. Sublime. More than enough to justify having bought it, full price. I regret nothing. It's a glorious failure.

  15. #1215
    Activated Node echoMateria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    The Steam community page is indeed overly optimistic, I wonder if it's counting F2P games too. The actual number keeps floating for me... I've seen it at, like, 255 the other day, and now it says 249 (dafuq?)

    There are some 3rd party efforts that seem more accurate:
    http://wastedonsteam.com/
    http://sapi.techieanalyst.net/

    they rate my library at around 180.
    The Steam community page counts you games + tools. If you go to your Library tab, click All Games and scroll down to Tools, you'll see that you have a ton of dedicated server applications, map builders and such that came free with the games you own. The real count of your games is the All Games (This Number) that you can see on your Library Tab.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    I like games what force me to go "buh?" often stealth games or turn based games where you are not being oppressed while you try and solve it.

    But everything I heard about GrimRock makes it sound like great technology and terrible design/balance.
    Character progression is the weakest aspect of Grimlock, it wasn't really a strong suit on its ancestors and its not any better here either. And it doesn't have much replayability unless you start exploring user created content. But aside from those, I don't see many justifiable complaints.

    For example the complaints regarding its combat system are as meaningless as saying RTS games play better than Chess. This comes from misunderstanding the game in a big way. Grimlock and the games it is based on aren't about the thrilling combat experience that would make even the best action RPGs run for their money, it never was. Its like saying the combat wasn't really satisfying in Portal... This genre is about figuring your way out of these mazes you have been thrown into. Figuring out the puzzles, finding all the secrets you can. Combat is there to add excitement to your dungeon crawling experience, the dessert, not the main course.
    Last edited by echoMateria; 20-12-2012 at 05:26 AM.
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  16. #1216
    Obscure Node Lehr's Avatar
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    I'm going to call it now, Steam is bad. And I agree with the man that posted above me.

  17. #1217
    Lesser Hivemind Node Juan Carlo's Avatar
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    I didn't really like Grimrock, but I've always found Dungeon Master type RPGs to be insanely boring (it combines the shitty real time combat of Oblivion with tedious, single-plain, grid-based, movement and exploration....what's not to love!?!?). Grimrock is a good Dungeon MAster clone, I guess, but it's not good enough a game to rise above its genre if you aren't a Dungeon Master fan.
    Last edited by Juan Carlo; 20-12-2012 at 06:28 AM.

  18. #1218
    Quote Originally Posted by echoMateria View Post
    Combat is there to add excitement to your dungeon crawling experience, the dessert, not the main course.
    Yes, and in the case of Grimrock, dessert arrived in the middle of the meal, and they served it by spiking it into your soup.

  19. #1219
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus alms's Avatar
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    I only test drove Grimrock for an hour or two but it seemed a competent crawler to me. The real-time combat and the 'weird' magic system that goes with it, is what set it apart from classic crawling experiences (my references in this genre are EoB2 and LoL1). And of course the contemporary execution.

    However, Grimrock is not supposed to be the main course of BTA, it was like 2.74 € during the thanksgiving sale. OTOH I don't think Dungeon Defender's complete package has ever been so cheap. It's just I refuse to play that game.

    The other thing that irks me about this HIB is the damn TBoI repeat (yes even more than Shank 2). I would go as far as assume that anybody who loved the game already bought the DLC and the rest couldn't give a flying, migratory, fuck for a game that Mr. "I have been doing this for a long time, trust me" McMillen couldn't even bother to have ported over from Flash.

    Slider set to 0 for me. And I apologize if that sounds overly ranty and bitter but the guy really rubs me the wrong way.

    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    all it tells me is they've made something in UDK where I can shoot chickens...
    Haha that was pretty awkward indeed. I'm still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt though.
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  20. #1220
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus alms's Avatar
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    PS: forgot about this:

    Quote Originally Posted by echoMateria View Post
    The Steam community page counts you games + tools.
    And yet, why would that count change over time ? without me buying games or redeeming keys? going down, too?

    FTR y all games count from the steam client is 189 and tool count 56 versus 249 from steamcommunity. Even free weekends won't explain the difference.
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