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  1. #1
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    From Doom to MW3 - How much has changed in FPS games since Doom?

    I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this as I don't really think they've changed that much. They've become slower for the most part if anything.

    So yeah, all opinions welcome!

  2. #2
    Activated Node spcd's Avatar
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    Doom was pure gameplay. There was a story, but you didn't notice anything of that story during the gameplay. Only after an episode you would get some text. And there was a story in the manual.

    Games like HalfLife2 and Call of duty are not just games. I would call them a hybrid of a game and a movie. It's a new sort of entertainment product. The experience is much more important than real gameplay elements.

    Another very important difference is that it's very annoying to die in COD or HL2. If you die you have to replay a section but the experience stays the same. The same scripted events will happen, the same dialogue lines will be said etc...

    In Doom it's normal to die a lot. You just start the level again, and each time you will become better at that level and you will find more secrets etc... When you have enough map knowledge you will be able to beat the level.

    This type of gameplay allows for speedrunning levels. The first time you do a level you might need 30 minutes, but after some practice you can do it in under 5 minutes. Games like Doom and Quake never get boring, even if you have played those levels multiple times.

    Games like Call of duty and Half-Life 2 are VERY different to Quake and Doom, and I really can't understand how you can't see that. Maybe you haven't really played them properly.
    Last edited by spcd; 25-03-2012 at 08:37 PM.

  3. #3
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Portal is nothing like Doom other than the viewpoint.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    Portal is nothing like Doom other than the viewpoint.
    I wouldn't call Portal a FPS though, as it most notably lacks the 'S' part (unless you count shooting the portals).

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    Portal is nothing like Doom other than the viewpoint.
    To the point I'd argue Portal is in no way an FPS.

  6. #6
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Hence it being one way in which the genre has changed.
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  7. #7
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    The Z axis.
    Enemies that dodge.
    Enemies that flank.
    Enemies that take cover.
    Enemies that flush you from cover.
    Stealth and enemy awareness.
    Secondary fire mode.
    Physics.
    Bullet physics.
    Narrative elements.
    Vehicles.
    Ally management.
    Objective-based multiplayer.
    Class-based multiplayer.
    Realistic environments.

    If you think this is the same as this, you're just not looking.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  8. #8
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    I think most of the FPS developers were too busy following the footsteps of Doom and Quake to do anything interesting with the genre at the start. Half Life did shake things up a bit, but a few years later Halo came out and the genre has stubbornly refused to budge since. There's nothing wrong with Halo by itself, the 'problem' was the sudden popularity it garnered from a massive new gamer base created during a time when the industry was going through a transitional period (The Sims came out a year before, everything changed).

    I would argue that the FPS should be broken down for spare parts much like RPGs have (the only difference is I want the RPGs back), and used to create more games like Mirror's Edge, Portal, Amnesia, Deus Ex, etc. Games which blur genres. Games where you barely have to fire a shot. Spending hours shooting is only viable for competitive multiplayer, I can't play an FPS single-player campaign without growing very, very bored.
    Last edited by Drake Sigar; 25-03-2012 at 09:13 PM.

  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    The Z axis.
    Enemies that dodge.
    Enemies that flank.
    Enemies that take cover.
    Enemies that flush you from cover.
    Stealth and enemy awareness.
    Secondary fire mode.
    Physics.
    Bullet physics.
    Narrative elements.
    Vehicles.
    Ally management.
    Objective-based multiplayer.
    Class-based multiplayer.
    Realistic environments.

    If you think this is the same as this, you're just not looking.
    Also, hats.

  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    Also, hats.
    Also, hats.

    At any rate, a genre that can include SS, CS, COD, DX, HL, TF2, L4D, UT, BF, R6, Portal, Tribes and Thief is a wide genre indeed.
    Last edited by Nalano; 25-03-2012 at 09:42 PM.
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  11. #11
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    I wouldn't class Portal as an FPS, though. Sure, it's a first-person game in the Source engine, but I'd personally call it a puzzle game.

    Most of the other ones Nalano mentioned are definitely pure FPSes, though (Although I'm not sure about Thief, but then I don't know what genre I would put it in)

  12. #12
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Good call on Rainbow 6, that's a perfect example of how the genre has changed.
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  13. #13
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
    I wouldn't class Portal as an FPS, though. Sure, it's a first-person game in the Source engine, but I'd personally call it a puzzle game.
    It has a gun - the titular portal gun - and you shoot it. It's a puzzle game, but so is World of Goo, and you can certainly see a substantive difference between the two.

    You can call it a puzzle FPS, if you want to distinguish, but genres are such that anything can be merged with anything. There are plenty of FPS RPGs for instance - I've done a lot of shooting in the first person PoV in Deus Ex and, for that matter, Skyrim - but even if you wanna define it narrowly (which, arguably, would negate Hexen), then you still have arena FPSs, tactical FPSs, action FPSs, horde modes of varying renown, objective-based team games, and a long laundry list of game modes and abilities that Doom-clones have never seen.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by spcd View Post

    Games like Call of duty and Half-Life 2 are VERY different to Quake and Doom, and I really can't understand how you can't see that. Maybe you haven't really played them properly.
    I agreed with almost everything you said spcd. But if you break down the gameplay in CoD or HL2 it's just the same as Doom isn't it? Get from A to B and shoot/collect/heal on the way.

    As for Portal; It's not a first person shooter. Yes, you can pick up a turret but that doesn't count as a shooter. Would you class Dear Esther as an FPS?

    @Nalano's post #7 - Any FPS that includes all of those elements still isn't enough to differentiate a game enough from Doom.

    Anyone remember that level Favela in MW2? Did nobody else here think that that level felt a lot like Doom? I'm not talking about the scripted events, I'm talking about the gameplay. Especially when you're by yourself. Take a look. It's not great footage but it's enough -


  15. #15
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    I stand by Portal as ​it's an indication of how diverse the genre is now from the 90s. It's the result of evolution, and may be a new species of game, but its DNA shares ancestry with Doom. You have to look at games of its ilk instead of claiming they're too different, otherwise all you're saying is that all these similar games are similar, and what's the point of that?
    The Medallion of the Imperial Psychopath, a Napoleon: Total War AAR
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    I stand by Portal as ​it's an indication of how diverse the genre is now from the 90s. It's the result of evolution, and may be a new species of game, but its DNA shares ancestry with Doom. You have to look at games of its ilk instead of claiming they're too different, otherwise all you're saying is that all these similar games are similar, and what's the point of that?
    Not so much similar, just not as different as some may think.

  17. #17
    Activated Node BrothaBear's Avatar
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    Graphic quality has improved but Gameplay has been cheapened. Like a.....cheap...cheap whore lol. Not games require even less skill, rely TOO heavily on things like (killstreaks) or some other deadly force that players can't intervene. Worst yet classes...My god the classes. I remember back in the day where a man wasn't judged by the gun he held, but how he used it!

    ...Anyways class-based gameplay seem to degrade FPS games like how VH1 did to music. You just knew what to expect when you saw it.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    I stand by Portal as ​it's an indication of how diverse the genre is now from the 90s. It's the result of evolution, and may be a new species of game, but its DNA shares ancestry with Doom.
    It also shares ancestry with Tetris. Far more, I'd argue. The only thing it has in common with Doom is that it looks like it.

    The problem is if you consider Portal to be an FPS then so is Deus Ex, the System Shocks, Thief and so on. In which case the genre really hasn't moved on from the 90s, and if anything it's gone backwards as they were all narrative heavy games.

  19. #19
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    The problem is if you consider Portal to be an FPS then so is Deus Ex, the System Shocks, Thief and so on. In which case the genre really hasn't moved on from the 90s, and if anything it's gone backwards as they were all narrative heavy games.
    Y'know, I would have made a long argument with examples and chronologies to explain just how daft I thought this statement was, but I realized that I have the next best thing: You're arguing Wizardry's point. You're saying nothing's changed in any genre in twenty years, because everything has roots somewhere in the panopticon of games design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heister View Post
    @Nalano's post #7 - Any FPS that includes all of those elements still isn't enough to differentiate a game enough from Doom.
    You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. I dunno if you've never played Doom, or if you've never played any game after Doom, but I'm positively flabbergasted by the blase insensibility of that statement.
    Last edited by Nalano; 26-03-2012 at 01:23 AM.
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  20. #20
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Cool, I've provoked a thought and a thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Heister View Post
    I agreed with almost everything you said spcd. But if you break down the gameplay in CoD or HL2 it's just the same as Doom isn't it? Get from A to B and shoot/collect/heal on the way.
    If I break down any game far enough I can find a common element, but clearly not every game is the same as every other game. Or to use your point, I can strip down Deus Ex or Portal or any of the other titles people are pointing out and say it has something in common with Doom. I can do the same for Doom and Wolfenstein 3D. But they are all clearly very different. As people have already stated the focus on story has become a lot more important to the point where the games (except perhaps Serious Sam 3) are story-driven. Doom and Wolf3D and so on were just rooms with guns and monsters/Nazis and a title suggestive of what they were, and that was partly due to engine limitations. Take Doom 2's Suburbs map (I think it's MAP07, can't remember too well... actually might be Downtown, whatever they work for the same point). If you weren't told what it was, you wouldn't know, nor do you really care. None of it really matters.

    It's entirely different for Half Life 2 however, where the environment looks like an actual city or whatever, and the game has a strong (if ambiguous) storyline marching you forward. Also Half Life 2 is entirely linear, while Doom did have a slight form of non-linearity by forcing you to hunt for keys and switches (which I wouldn't classify as true non-linearity since you effectively follow a single path in the end anyway). The two share the fact that they're first person perspective and that you shoot guns... and that's about it. They share those elements because they're FPS games but there's a significant advancement from Doom to Half Life 2... or really just Doom to Half Life. Or Quake to Half Life since Quake had proper 3D environments, Doom itself didn't support floating platforms being a sector based engine.

    FPS games have come a long way and that was my point in the other thread - traditional FPS design like Doom or Heretic doesn't hold up very well today because it's just about shooting and little else, but that's what people wanted back them. Even the Serious Sam series wasn't a direct copy of those days; it still features largely linear levels focusing on arena setpieces and has a story which plays a more prominent part than the story ever did in Doom. Hell, even Doom and DN3D are distinct in that part because DN3D attached a greater importance to the environment Duke was in and tried to make the environments look more plausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    The problem is if you consider Portal to be an FPS then so is Deus Ex, the System Shocks, Thief and so on. In which case the genre really hasn't moved on from the 90s, and if anything it's gone backwards as they were all narrative heavy games.
    Not really. Things can still be an FPS but they can be different. Remember "FPS" is a very broad category and as we've already said the games within that category diverge greatly, from the straight shooters like Quake to the more complex games like Thief. They're clearly FPS games because they still have that core mechanic, but they place importance on different elements which distinguish them. You might consider "FPS" to be a Supergenre.

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