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  1. #41
    Lesser Hivemind Node fiddlesticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Gameplay developed since Doom

    You:

    Dodging.
    Doom had that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Using a weapon that isn't direct-fire.
    Do you mean non-hitscan weapons? If so, Doom had that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Blind-firing.
    Doom had that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Your enemies:

    Reacting to visual and auditory stimuli.
    Doom had that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Killing each other, and not just by mistake.
    Doom had that, though I guess the mistake part is somewhat arguable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco
    What's changed since DOOM?

    Mouse control.
    Doom had that.

    Don't get me wrong, I agree with your general sentiment. The FPS genre has evolved quite a lot over the years. But making inaccurate claims won't really help your point.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    That's your reply? Here, crib notes:

    Gameplay developed since Doom

    You:

    Jumping. Dodging. Sliding. Crouching. Going Prone. Leaning. Vaulting. Climbing. Grappling. Swimming. Diving. Using a secondary fire mode. Using a non-lethal weapon. Using a weapon that isn't direct-fire. Blind-firing. Zooming in. Driving a vehicle. Flying a vehicle. Using a jetpack. Using a fixed emplacement. Puppeteering. Specializing for a role. Killing silently. Laying traps.

    Your enemies:

    Jumping. Sprinting. Dodging. Vaulting. Sliding. Crouching. Going Prone. Leaning. Climbing. Grappling. Swimming. Diving. Leaning. Blind-firing. Switching to appropriate weapons. Hiding behind cover. Flushing you from cover. Using fixed emplacements. Driving vehicles. Flying vehicles. Using jetpacks. Using weapons that obfuscate your view. Using weapons that stun you. Retreating. Reacting to visual and auditory stimuli. Communicating. Working in tandem. Flanking. Not killing you. Killing each other, and not just by mistake. Helping you.

    Your environment:

    Variegated. Recognizable. Modifiable. Destructible.

    And that's in just your dumb plotless shoot-em-ups.
    This game/chapter has a lot of those elements and yet to me it still felt like Doom when I played it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdo8H91tOv8 When it came out I honestly thought that the Favela chapter was maybe a nod to id.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keep View Post
    Can I join the "Wow that actually is a useless word" wagon?

    So the argument I see in this thread is:

    1. Doom is an FPS.

    2. Shootmanbanger 2012 is an FPS.

    3. Portal's not an FPS!

    4. Nor is Amnesia!

    5. Or Mirror's Edge!

    6. Or Thief!

    7. Therefore FPS' haven't changed what givvvvvvves???
    My point was more that Doom and System Shock were only a year apart, and if you're going to consider those sort of games FPSs, then many of the modern innovations in the genre are hugely streamlined and cleaned up versions of the things we saw in those games.

    Personally I don't think it's sufficient to be a game that just has first-person shooting in it and be called an FPS. I think that has to be the primary mechanic of the game.

    Point being I do think FPSs have developed hugely, it's just that including games like Human Revolution, Portal and so on within the genre we're discussing actually demonstrates less development, because including those means including the 90s immersive sims in the discussion-space, and they're where many of the more interesting ideas in modern mainstream-FPSs came from.

    For example Bioshock was a huge leap forwards for the FPS, but all it really did was take all the bits of System Shock 2 it could feasibly use while still keeping the focus on the shooting. If we're not calling SS2 an FPS then Bioshock was revolutionary for the genre. If we are calling SS2 an FPS then it really wasn't.

  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiddlesticks View Post
    Doom had that.
    You mean Doom had moving to the side. I'm talking acrobatics.

    You mean Doom had Rocket Launchers. I'm talking C4, grenades of all types, sticky bombs, landmines, mortars and all weapons with high arc fire, guided missiles, seeking missiles. RC explosives, gravity guns, and picking up and throwing things.

    You mean Doom had enemies who stayed put until you entered the room. I'm talking enemies who can hear you in the next room. Who didn't see you because you were in the dark.

    Doom did NOT have blind fire, because Doom did not have a way for your weapon reach over obstacles without you reaching over obstacles, and Doom most certainly did not have allies nor independents nor separate enemy factions. Furthermore, the Doom engine was updated after the fact for mouselook, when Doom got ported everywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heister View Post
    This game/chapter has a lot of those elements and yet to me it still felt like Doom when I played it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdo8H91tOv8 When it came out I honestly thought that the Favela chapter was maybe a nod to id.
    Is that your only response? I mean, seriously, you're not even answering me. You're just ignoring me. Stop that: It's insulting, and makes you look ignorant. You might as well stick fingers in your ears. At this point the only conclusion I can draw is that you don't play FPSs. You really don't.
    Last edited by Nalano; 26-03-2012 at 07:14 PM.
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  5. #45
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Rooms on top of other rooms.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
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    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voon View Post
    Thanks to Quake
    Ultima Underworld had full mouse look and mouse movement controls before Wolfenstein 3D came out. In fact, you could play the game entirely using a mouse.

    And to address Nalano, it had allies, factions, stealth, noise detection, physics and more. If System Shock, Deus Ex, Mirror's Edge and Portal are all FPSs then the genre label is meaningless, and Doom is just a drop on the ocean.
    Last edited by Wizardry; 26-03-2012 at 07:43 PM.

  7. #47
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    "How much has changed in FPS games since Doom?"

    A lot, and not enough. Who would have thought that 20 years later, we'd still have about the same amount of interactivity with the game world in FPSs (and often less -- Duke Nukem 3D let you flush toilets!) as we did then.

  8. #48
    Lesser Hivemind Node fiddlesticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Doom did NOT have blind fire, because Doom did not have a way for your weapon reach over obstacles without you reaching over obstacles
    You can use the rocket launcher's splash damage to kill enemies you can't see, though I concede that's not the really same thing as your example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Furthermore, the Doom engine was updated after the fact for mouselook, when Doom got ported everywhere.
    Mouselook in the way we know it today was introduced by Quake, but mouse control in itself was present in Doom, you just couldn't look up or down. I believe it might even have been present in Wolfenstein 3D.

    I admit though, at this point I'm mostly arguing semantics, so I'll leave the field clear for people whose arguments are more interesting than mine.

  9. #49
    To me, the thing that renders the OP's 'point' entirely moot is the fact that I still play Doom from time to time, simply because the genre has evolved and there isn't anything made these days that scratches that same itch that Doom does.

    As for modern FPSes, well I've been having a ball with The Darkness II lately. The quad wielding, darkness powers, allied companion, levelling elements, and the way those things affect health/ammo/enemy management, means that while, yes, I am still killing dudes from a FPP, it doesn't really play like Doom at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by fiddlesticks View Post
    Mouselook in the way we know it today was introduced by Quake,
    I know this isn't your point but you've just reminded me of something. The first game I played that came with mouse-look as the default control scheme was Terminator: Future Shock which pre-dated Quake by a good year. To get mouselook working in way we know today in Quake you had to create some custom bindings.

    Someone probably gonna turn up now and find an even earlier example of FPS mouse-look.
    Last edited by Angel Dust; 26-03-2012 at 10:09 PM.

  10. #50
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Doom did not have blind firing, just not true within the defined context of the phrase.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindfire
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  11. #51
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oof View Post
    Who would have thought that 20 years later, we'd still have about the same amount of interactivity with the game world in FPSs (and often less -- Duke Nukem 3D let you flush toilets!) as we did then.


    This is what hurts the most. I'd trade graphical fidelity for better interactivity.

  12. #52
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiddlesticks View Post
    Mouselook in the way we know it today was introduced by Quake, but mouse control in itself was present in Doom, you just couldn't look up or down. I believe it might even have been present in Wolfenstein 3D.
    If I recall mouse look was in DN3D by default... though it was very fiddly and due to the nature of the engines of the time it'd distort your perspective quite a bit. I agree with you that Quake ultimately popularised mouse-look and WSAD. Doom didn't need it, and it wasn't until the other ports (e.g. zDoom and friends) came out in force that it was needed.

    Off topic but I used to know a friend who played DN3D with mouse movement (as in mouse controls player movement not looking around). Ridiculously disorienting.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirKicksalot View Post
    This is what hurts the most. I'd trade graphical fidelity for better interactivity.
    DNF had interactivity all over the place. Were you happy with your trade? ;)

    Though to be fair for most games I don't see much of a point. Flushing toilets in DN3D was something you did in E1M1 and then left alone. I can totally understand why developers don't add in pointless interactivity.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Flushing toilets in DN3D was something you did in E1M1 and then left alone. I can totally understand why developers don't add in pointless interactivity.
    I'd thought we'd go in the direction of being able to kick doors down, scale buildings by rope, rappel from rooftops, hide in cupboards, push items in front of entranceways in order to seal them off, throw chairs around, etc. Instead, we can't even flush toilets anymore.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oof View Post
    I'd thought we'd go in the direction of being able to kick doors down, scale buildings by rope, rappel from rooftops, hide in cupboards, push items in front of entranceways in order to seal them off, throw chairs around, etc. Instead, we can't even flush toilets anymore.
    You could do that in Portal. But as it's not an fps...

  15. #55
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post

    Off topic but I used to know a friend who played DN3D with mouse movement (as in mouse controls player movement not looking around). Ridiculously disorienting.


    DNF had interactivity all over the place. Were you happy with your trade? ;)

    Though to be fair for most games I don't see much of a point. Flushing toilets in DN3D was something you did in E1M1 and then left alone. I can totally understand why developers don't add in pointless interactivity.
    I also played it with mouse movement. And I played shooters like that until HL2.
    I liked DNF's interactivity. I also enjoy picking up stuff and activating random objects. And most of all, I like physics and an environment that reacts to my actions. I hate how static it is in most games.

    How come so few games have good destructible environments? I'm frustrated by Crysis 2, for example - the engine supports procedural deformation and destruction, but it's only used on big metal containers and a few walls. Years ago Black provided a COD-style experience and you could blow up the entire map, in fact to exit the first room you have to break down the door.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heister View Post
    You could do that in Portal. But as it's not an fps...
    It's in first person, and you shoot, but it's an outlier in a lot of ways, so it doesn't count.

    Sure, you can probably find a recent-ish FPS that lets you flush toilets (although, the point of my comment is not that I want to flush toilets in FPSs... hahah), but it's a rarity.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oof View Post
    It's in first person, and you shoot, but it's an outlier in a lot of ways, so it doesn't count.

    Sure, you can probably find a recent-ish FPS that lets you flush toilets (although, the point of my comment is not that I want to flush toilets in FPSs... hahah), but it's a rarity.
    I'm glad :D

    It's only a matter of time before someone makes a first person public toilet cleaning simulator. It could be fun?

    Last edited by Heister; 27-03-2012 at 01:30 AM.

  18. #58
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    I'd like to present these videos, that should be obligatory for any such threads.




  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oof View Post
    I'd thought we'd go in the direction of being able to kick doors down, scale buildings by rope, rappel from rooftops, hide in cupboards, push items in front of entranceways in order to seal them off, throw chairs around, etc. Instead, we can't even flush toilets anymore.
    Shit, man, half the games out today are door-kicking, rope-scaling simulators. HL2 had missions where the very point was to make use of the physics. DXHR was all about stacking boxes and FONV had you scouring every goddamn desk drawer in the city. There are plenty of FPSs now that let you make use of physics to set traps and crush opponents. If you take TPSs into account, there's a veritable shitload of ways your character makes use of the environment.

    The reason we can't flush toilets nowadays is as Soldant said: What's the point? Useless interaction is useless. You want to flush toilets? Okay, play DNF. Hell, DNF lets you fling poo around. And in the words of the Duke himself: "Why am I doing this?"

    (btw, ME2 lets you flush toilets. And that's why ME2's a great game, amirite?)
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  20. #60
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexter View Post
    I'd like to present these videos, that should be obligatory for any such threads.
    They're obligatory in that we can use them as a perfect example of people who think satire or parody should be done with a sledgehammer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heister View Post
    You could do that in Portal. But as it's not an fps...
    Oh god, not this again...

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