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  1. #61
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    They're obligatory in that we can use them as a perfect example of people who think satire or parody should be done with a sledgehammer.
    Or that there are people out there who mistake satire for in-depth analysis.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Shit, man, half the games out today are door-kicking, rope-scaling simulators. HL2 had missions where the very point was to make use of the physics. DXHR was all about stacking boxes and FONV had you scouring every goddamn desk drawer in the city. There are plenty of FPSs now that let you make use of physics to set traps and crush opponents. If you take TPSs into account, there's a veritable shitload of ways your character makes use of the environment.
    There's a difference between designing a level or mission in which you can open drawers or move boxes to reach your objective; and designing these elements from the start to be a core feature of your gameplay. I'm talking about "emergent gameplay", obviously. CoD would be pretty awesome if it weren't just about shooting people in the head. Maps (and, more importantly, gameplay) would be so much more interesting if you could move objects around in order to make choke points; if you could destroy and deform terrain or buildings; if a gun that shoots grappling hooks were available to you; etc. As it is, I can't stand to play it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    The reason we can't flush toilets nowadays is as Soldant said: What's the point? Useless interaction is useless. You want to flush toilets? Okay, play DNF. Hell, DNF lets you fling poo around. And in the words of the Duke himself: "Why am I doing this?"

    (btw, ME2 lets you flush toilets. And that's why ME2's a great game, amirite?)
    There's that New Yorker charm -- deliberately ignoring what I've written just so you can take a jab. Nice one. Useless replies are useless. Also, ME2's a middling game.
    Last edited by Oof; 27-03-2012 at 07:40 AM.

  3. #63
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    On emergent physics use.
    In splinter cell I always prided myself on taking down guards with a thrown drink bottle. Deus ex Human Revolution took this to its natural extreme, vending machines. Using a combination of augmented legs for jumping, arms for throwing and fast battery regeneration I cleared whole bases by making like a drop bear vendor.

    Sure I'd reload, I wanted that bloody pacifist achievement!

    Vending machines are perfectly valid ways of completing boss battles.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  4. #64
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus b0rsuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    You mean Doom had moving to the side. I'm talking acrobatics.
    DooM has various quirky methods of movement, such as Archville-jumping, rocket jumping (required to find a secret in one of official levels), strafe running, wall running, and probably a few others I'm not aware of.

    You mean Doom had Rocket Launchers. I'm talking C4, grenades of all types, sticky bombs, landmines, mortars and all weapons with high arc fire, guided missiles, seeking missiles. RC explosives, gravity guns, and picking up and throwing things.
    No True Scotsman fallacy. You've been shown to be wrong, so you change definition of indirect fire on the fly. DooM had indirect damage in form of explosions, not just rocket launchers but (in)famous exploding barrels. The barrels happen to be one of more requested features in various FPS and action games.

    You mean Doom had enemies who stayed put until you entered the room. I'm talking enemies who can hear you in the next room. Who didn't see you because you were in the dark.
    DooM has enemies who can hear you. Practically all of them. If they don't see you and you fire a shot, they go after you.


    Furthermore, the Doom engine was updated after the fact for mouselook, when Doom got ported everywhere.
    He said mouse control and DooM has that. Not mouselook, but in vanilla doom you can set Mouse as an input device and rotate your view using it. It's very convenient. Furthermore, some of developers played it that way before the game was finished. I think it was mentioned in description of one of songs by Bobby Prince. He explained where the names came from.

    By the way: Portal is really not a FPS - by definition. First Person Shooter. I remember there was a time when a broader name was in use - FPP, for First Person Perspective.

    As for various gimmicks, it's a question what makes a game fun, not just what makes a game advanced. Diablo 1 had succubi who shot missiles and ran away when you approached. Intelligent ? Yes. Fun ? No way, it was incredibly frustrating and just time-consuming for warriors.

    DooM 2 had one of biggest monster sets in the entire FPS genre, and still has very hard to achieve variety in this regard. The sequel alone added 8 monster types, for a total of 18. Meanwhile modern games often have 5 or so. DooM II levels, while abstract, are all fun and varied. Modern games amuse you with offices complete with cubicles, ruins, warehouses, military bases and not much more. In a way they are much more constrained. Not to mention the number of weapons you could use.
    Last edited by b0rsuk; 27-03-2012 at 09:39 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    On emergent physics use.
    In splinter cell I always prided myself on taking down guards with a thrown drink bottle. Deus ex Human Revolution took this to its natural extreme, vending machines. Using a combination of augmented legs for jumping, arms for throwing and fast battery regeneration I cleared whole bases by making like a drop bear vendor.

    Sure I'd reload, I wanted that bloody pacifist achievement!

    Vending machines are perfectly valid ways of completing boss battles.
    Love DE:HR for this reason. We're finally moving forward again. Still, we've only had a few handfuls of games that have moved the genre forward like this in its over-20-years lifespan.

  6. #66
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    The reason we can't flush toilets nowadays is as Soldant said: What's the point? Useless interaction is useless. You want to flush toilets? Okay, play DNF. Hell, DNF lets you fling poo around. And in the words of the Duke himself: "Why am I doing this?"
    Useless interaction is still interaction, sometimes that's enough. If there's a vending machine around, I want to press the button and watch a soda fall out. No idea why, I guess being able to do something that the majority of games don't allow is often facinating, no matter how pointless it may seem.

    Starwars Kinect gave me some perspective though, at least the ability to move in directions hasn't been taken from us yet.

  7. #67
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oof View Post
    Love DE:HR for this reason. We're finally moving forward again. Still, we've only had a few handfuls of games that have moved the genre forward like this in its over-20-years lifespan.
    Wait.. I'm not sure if you are mocking me, but I like it!
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  8. #68
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    No True Scotsman fallacy. You've been shown to be wrong, so you change definition of indirect fire on the fly. DooM had indirect damage in form of explosions, not just rocket launchers but (in)famous exploding barrels. The barrels happen to be one of more requested features in various FPS and action games.



    I disagree - Indirect fire does not equal splash damage. Shooting arrows in an arc over an hill to hit targets behind that hill is indirect fire. Firing on an explosive barrel in your sights which then kills a target you can not see is collatoral or splash damage (but you are aiming at the barrel - and not the invisible target, as opposed to indirect fire, where you are attempting to hit a target you can not see directly with the weapon you currently have).

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Wait.. I'm not sure if you are mocking me, but I like it!
    Hahahahah! I'm being serious. Sort of.

  10. #70
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    DooM has various quirky methods of movement, such as Archville-jumping, rocket jumping (required to find a secret in one of official levels), strafe running, wall running, and probably a few others I'm not aware of.
    True but it wasn't until source ports that "jumping" had much meaning since, if I remember right, the original Doom.exe (and Doom2.exe since it's fundamentally the same engine) had an infinite height for "solid" objects (i.e. the player, monsters, static decorate objects that couldn't be walked through). Strafe running and wall running were engine quirks. Rocket "jumping" is sort of there I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    DooM has enemies who can hear you. Practically all of them. If they don't see you and you fire a shot, they go after you.
    Technically true, but Wolfenstein 3D also had this. If the player "made a noise" while on a specific floor ID set in the map editor, and the enemy was on that same floor ID, they'd "hear" the noise... it wasn't really distance. I don't recall exactly how the monsters worked in vanilla Doom but I think it worked on sectors.

    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    By the way: Portal is really not a FPS - by definition. First Person Shooter. I remember there was a time when a broader name was in use - FPP, for First Person Perspective.
    As Nalano said, you have a gun that shoots portals.

    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    DooM 2 had one of biggest monster sets in the entire FPS genre, and still has very hard to achieve variety in this regard. The sequel alone added 8 monster types, for a total of 18.
    That wasn't much of a stretch really; some were just variants of existing monsters - you got a different variant of the Baron of Hell (the Hell Knight, one at half-strength of its original), a zombie with a chaingun, a smaller Spider Mastermind that shot plasma instead of using a chaingun, and a Cacodemon that shoots Lost Souls instead of lightning bolts. The Arch-vile, Revenant, and Mancubus were sufficiently different. Blake Stone had a boatload of enemy types as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by b0rsuk View Post
    DooM II levels, while abstract, are all fun and varied. Modern games amuse you with offices complete with cubicles, ruins, warehouses, military bases and not much more. In a way they are much more constrained. Not to mention the number of weapons you could use.
    Doom 2's levels are abstract due to engine limitations at the time. To be honest I love them, I love trying to guess what each place was supposed to represent. But they're not without design flaws, such as lots of backtracking (which doesn't add much to the game), and again they're just large sectors with very little decoration. It's true that level design is a lot more constrained today but that's largely because people seem to be focusing on particular settings, just like how every 2nd game was a WW2 game in the mid 2000s. If you made a bunch of abstract rooms like a Doom 2 level, it'd be criticised and rightly so, because in today's age with the kind of abundant graphics processing a big empty room isn't particularly good. The Doom games are my favourite games bar none, but the abstract level design was a limitation of the time, and I don't miss key/switch hunts.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    As Nalano said, you have a gun that shoots portals.
    Fine, but only in the same way my forthcoming game where you inject heroin in the first person is also an FPS.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post

    As Nalano said, you have a gun that shoots portals.
    It's not a gun. It's a device that fires portals. We call it a gun as it's easier than saying handheld portal device. It's as much a gun as a torch is.

  13. #73
    Lesser Hivemind Node fiddlesticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    If you made a bunch of abstract rooms like a Doom 2 level, it'd be criticised and rightly so, because in today's age with the kind of abundant graphics processing a big empty room isn't particularly good.
    True, Doom's level design hasn't agred nearly as well as its gameplay elements. Though I'd actually be genuinely interested in an FPS that forgoes realistic level design in favour of abstract and surreal architecture. Something akin to what Sunder did.

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