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  1. #41
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Remember the uninformed shitstorms that CoD:MW2 and GTA got?
    The airport level? I couldn't take that seriously, it was built from the ground up to be controversial and bait the media. I was more bothered by MW1's depiction and glorification of current wars going on right now, as our soldiers are dying in the Middle East. This is so tasteless, they could at least wait till the war is over.

  2. #42
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Yes some of the best artwork in ever meduium has been the ones that disturb and make you question whats in that media and your own beliefs. I mean Lolita the book was controversial when it came out I bet, so was the movie. And A Clockwork Orange, but these films are the ones that stay with us and there should be more of them especially in gaming.

    I say want a game to play as a Holocaust guard! I want a game where I murder children. Not in any oh i'm killing children haha way but in an intelligent manner. We can ignore the games that don't do it in an intelligent manner.

  3. #43
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    I say want a game to play as a Holocaust guard!
    Don't run before you can walk. We've not even been given a campaign from the perspective of a WW2 German soldier yet.

  4. #44
    Obscure Node Equim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    Don't run before you can walk. We've not even been given a campaign from the perspective of a WW2 German soldier yet.
    I'm not sure how "story-driven" it was, or if it was just random singleplayer maps, but didn't Red Orchestra 2 have a Germain SP campaign? Even if it wasn't that "story-driven" I believe it was a step in the right direction.

  5. #45
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    No idea. I know you could play Axis 'bout ten years back in Battlefield 1942. Never spotted any outrage over that, but there wasn't any story there either.

  6. #46
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Althea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    The airport level? I couldn't take that seriously, it was built from the ground up to be controversial and bait the media. I was more bothered by MW1's depiction and glorification of current wars going on right now, as our soldiers are dying in the Middle East. This is so tasteless, they could at least wait till the war is over.
    Perhaps, and I certainly agree with your points, but I think some - particularly the mainstream press with no real interest in gaming (i.e. the right-wing reactionary rags) - took it at face value, misconstrued it and turned it into a huge example of why GAMINGZ R EVUHLZ.

    And I think that affects all of us, and many of the games we play.


  7. #47
    Obscure Node Equim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    No idea. I know you could play Axis 'bout ten years back in Battlefield 1942. Never spotted any outrage over that, but there wasn't any story there either though.
    From what I heard it was kind of like the BF1942 style, you get a map, tickets, some objectives and a briefing with voice acting, all that stuff. Not really something like "You are Sergeant Smith and this is your story" like most people are used to now, with for example the CoD games.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    Don't run before you can walk. We've not even been given a campaign from the perspective of a WW2 German soldier yet.
    I'd buy that game, if it were done well.

  9. #49
    I would eat up a well made WW2 game from the german perspective. Anyone remember Das Boot?

  10. #50
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    Don't run before you can walk. We've not even been given a campaign from the perspective of a WW2 German soldier yet.
    One of my favourite war films is 'Cross of Iron' (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074695/) by Sam Peckinpah which is set on the Eastern front from the German perspective. It's a great piece because it's forcing you to watch a protagonist, who you've up to now (through pretty much every other war film) been conditioned to view as the irredeemable bad guy and actually recognising that he is regardless of whatever side of a conflict he may be on as much a human being as anyone else.

    I'd buy that game, if it were done well.
    I think it could be done, but it would have to be one that was more a story based game than CoD (with ludicrous kill counts) in a German uniform.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 30-03-2012 at 01:20 PM.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Yeah, we have massive problems with sexualisation of young, pre-teen (or young teen) girls, so let's add more 'cos no-one will notice.

    GENIUS.
    Yeah but a Lolita game that actually tackled those issues head on is infinitely preferable to games like Tera that just exploit stuff like that for shits and erections.

    I think games have to be more careful as the mechanics can imply certain points of view of developers. In a book or film you'll rarely get a story where the evil rapist/paedophile is happy all the way through and gets away with it at the end. Not outside of porn anyway. But in games if you want to give players the option to explore the darker sides, but still want them to be able to win the game, you have to be wary how you reward them.

    I think the biggest problem for games is that they don't know what they're trying to say. When these things crop in in other media there's generally a point, an artistic intent. Without that it's a lot harder to judge.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I think it could be done, but it would have to be one that was more a story based game than CoD (with ludicrous kill counts) in a German uniform.
    Ideally, I'd want the game to start in the 1930s. We'd get to see how poor and miserable Germans were at the time. The entire first chapter would be a series of (interactive, playable) vignettes, from the perspective of the life of one man or boy, over the span of several years. Eventually he'd enlist in the army. And then you'd have to go kill people.

    It would be some hardcore stuff...

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    I think the biggest problem for games is that they don't know what they're trying to say. When these things crop in in other media there's generally a point, an artistic intent. Without that it's a lot harder to judge.
    Good point. What is a game like Mass Effect trying to say, for instance? It's very jumbled. Aaand we return to gaming's achilles heels, here -- shitty writers and executive/management meddling.
    Last edited by Oof; 30-03-2012 at 12:59 PM.

  13. #53
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Perhaps, and I certainly agree with your points, but I think some - particularly the mainstream press with no real interest in gaming (i.e. the right-wing reactionary rags) - took it at face value, misconstrued it and turned it into a huge example of why GAMINGZ R EVUHLZ.

    And I think that affects all of us, and many of the games we play.
    There is controversial garbage in every other medium, gaming shouldn't be excluded just because it's the youngest and under attack by a media which has condemned even the most harmless fads like Harry Potter and Dungeons & Dragons. The only thing gaming needs is more tact and maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oof View Post
    I'd buy that game, if it were done well.
    Me too. Think I'll go check out that movie Kadayi suggested.
    Last edited by Drake Sigar; 30-03-2012 at 01:00 PM.

  14. #54
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oof View Post
    Ideally, I'd want the game to start in the 1930s. We'd get to see how poor and miserable Germans were at the time. The entire first chapter would be a series of (interactive, playable) vignettes, from the perspective of the life of one man or boy, over the span of several years. Eventually he'd enlist in the army. And then you'd have to go kill people.

    It would be some hardcore stuff....
    I think that would certainly work as an educational piece for sure. One of the key reasons the Nazi party managed to rise to popularity was in large part down to the fact that after world war I, the league of nations basically expected the German people to foot the (frankly ludicrous) bill for 'damages' through reparations (whilst the Kaiser simply got a slapped wrist and sent to exile..because hanging him wasn't an option as he was Royalty and had family everywhere) and effectively ended up causing the hyper inflation that lead to the collapse of the fledgeling Weimar republic and the German peoples growing discontent with foreign nationals.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_reparations

    Reparations, quite possibly one of the dumbest ideas ever dreamt up in the history of mankind.
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  15. #55
    Obscure Node Equim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oof View Post
    Ideally, I'd want the game to start in the 1930s. We'd get to see how poor and miserable Germans were at the time. The entire first chapter would be a series of (interactive, playable) vignettes, from the perspective of the life of one man or boy, over the span of several years. Eventually he'd enlist in the army. And then you'd have to go kill people.
    This does actually seem like a really interesting concept to me.
    Go through most of the 1930's which would display things that you would commonly see in germany during that time (Kids playing with blocks of bills for example).
    I would like it to actually be a few hours of different stuff here, not just like the tutorial then bang, into the war we go. It might bore most people but personally, I would find it interesting.
    Up to the part where the war starts whjich might be the second "act" of the game where you go through stuff like "boot camps" or such, do a few battles in poland, then continue into a third act which might just be the retreat back from the eastern front.

  16. #56
    Network Hub Jeremy's Avatar
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    I'm torn, because there are some fools out there that take that right of free speech, or free expression, and just put out the most vile garbage a person can see. A Serbian Film anyone? Now, whatever Radivojević's artistic(yeah right) intent for the movie, the reality is he was just pushing boundaries for the sake of pushing them. There are better ways to artistically express

    "a metaphor for our national cinema - boring , predictable and altogether unintentionally hilarious which throughout our film to some extent is commented on and subtly parodied."

    The guy is full of it, and I think we've gotten to the point where any fool with a toilet can call his feces art. Any person can just say "it's my opinion" and that somehow validates everything. Opinions are validated through expertise, not by the nature of simply having a thought in your brain.

    That being said, as much as I detest these artistic charlatans, we can't do much about it because there is legitimate art out there, stories to tell, and even good stories that will offend a lot of people. We can't really risk going down that road because we don't really know where it leads, or what we might lose.

    In short, game content shouldn't be restricted by moral standards, but I sure hope that people are discerning enough to not consider something "art" because it's shocking, or because it's morally ambiguous. A rating system is just fine, but I do wish it was more of a 1:1 comparison.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    I'm torn, because there are some fools out there that take that right of free speech, or free expression, and just put out the most vile garbage a person can see. A Serbian Film anyone? Now, whatever Radivojević's artistic(yeah right) intent for the movie, the reality is he was just pushing boundaries for the sake of pushing them. There are better ways to artistically express

    "a metaphor for our national cinema - boring , predictable and altogether unintentionally hilarious which throughout our film to some extent is commented on and subtly parodied."

    The guy is full of it, and I think we've gotten to the point where any fool with a toilet can call his feces art. Any person can just say "it's my opinion" and that somehow validates everything. Opinions are validated through expertise, not by the nature of simply having a thought in your brain.

    That being said, as much as I detest these artistic charlatans, we can't do much about it because there is legitimate art out there, stories to tell, and even good stories that will offend a lot of people. We can't really risk going down that road because we don't really know where it leads, or what we might lose.

    In short, game content shouldn't be restricted by moral standards, but I sure hope that people are discerning enough to not consider something "art" because it's shocking, or because it's morally ambiguous. A rating system is just fine, but I do wish it was more of a 1:1 comparison.
    Well your final paragraph is the most important one really. It is not your call whether that serbian film is allowed to be made, and nor should it be. But you are totally within your rights to not like it, not watch, dismiss it out of hand and even criticise it. Same with games and all forms of expression.

  18. #58
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    I think that would certainly work as an educational piece for sure.


    Yes! Which also goes with my other points in that games are a great medium for education because it can with the right people working on it put you in someone else's shoes. Thats why I would like both that and the holocaust guard thing, just think of an interesting dillemma you got there, do you help out the jews even though it risks your life or do you go the easy option because you have a wife and kids to feed. It would be interesting and contraversial!

    Well your final paragraph is the most important one really. It is not your call whether that serbian film is allowed to be made, and nor should it be. But you are totally within your rights to not like it, not watch, dismiss it out of hand and even criticise it. Same with games and all forms of expression.


    Yep i'm happy that A Serbian Film is out there maybe the director is telling the truth, I mean I'm sure many people think what my stories and films are about is artitistic director wank and not really there but maybe he did want to push that forward. The thing is I know from descriptions it is not for me so I choose to not watch that film, some other people choose to see the film as it is some other people choose to see an exploitation film.

    Consumer censorship instead of Government censorship.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Why do I suspect that all that guy's games are going to be variations on "how I will murder my boss"?
    I think that's a game with real potential.


    (I actually really like my boss)

  20. #60
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    Whatever your opinion on A Serbian Film is, it was a well-made movie. It's actually impressive considering its microscopic budget. George Lucas (I know, I know) recently said something along the lines of "art is technology". I agree with that. I am fascinated by technology and find beauty in it. I can easily appreciate and marvel at movies and games whose only achievement is technical. I have no doubt that Battleship is going to be a piece of shit story-wise and in the acting department, but the technical wizardry is what I find appealing. I am not attracted by the explosions, but by the craftsmanship behind them.

    I'm content with defining art as "stuff made by someone that viscerally appeals to people". I think it's broad enough to cover all bases. There's also this video.
    Also the shit depicted in A Serbian Movie actually happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Equim View Post
    I would like it to actually be a few hours of different stuff here, not just like the tutorial then bang, into the war we go. It might bore most people but personally, I would find it interesting.
    I really hope we'll see stuff like this that is not fucking atrocious like in Mafia 2 or GTA. I suppose the costs and different skills required to make it possible are gigantic. Also, I think that the further you get from the mechanical, pavlovian gameplay models common (and I believe actually expected by most players) today, the more similar to real-life the experience has to be in order to compensate. You expect things to behave and react naturally when your attention is not focused on the central mechanics of the game. As stupid as it may sound, I'm looking forward to the days of the technological singularity, graphene and mass market quantum computing specifically because it will make such in-depth experiences possible.
    I hope I make sense lol. Writing from work FTW!

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