Dragon Age II Reaction

[NathanH]

I don't think we should be aiming for realism in NPC interactions. I mean, we'd have to have stuff like long pauses, umms and errs, mishearing, misunderstandings...

If I'm going to be making choices I'd like the consequences to be logical. If you can just say "yeah, sometimes responses are irrational", what's the point in it all? Games tend to be better when the outcomes of your decisions are somewhat predictable (in the sense that the outcome belongs in a set of possibilities, rather than you can predict what the outcome is).

[Nalano]

Games tend to be better when the outcomes of your decisions are somewhat predictable (in the sense that the outcome belongs in a set of possibilities, rather than you can predict what the outcome is).

Games tend to be more predictable when it's all laid out in front of you, and I think there's a real divide in even gamers' minds when it comes to what they want: They want unpredictable outcomes, but they want it to make sense in retrospect, yet they tend to enforce this by making developers use and reuse extraordinarily predictable tropes. They're torn between wanting a unique story to unfold before them and wanting to win a game.

Nevertheless, drama generally happens because of irrationalities, misunderstandings, talking at cross-purposes...

Frankly, I don't think the get-Aveline-a-boyfriend quest was as internally in-cohesive as Unrav suggests. It was awkward, because she was awkward, and either lampshading that fact or exploiting that fact resulted in a strong backlash by Aveline herself because she basically just wanted it over with. It's sort of a "let's never speak of this again" type of result, so your involvement in it isn't rewarded so much in friendship stickers as it is the general comedic potential of the situation itself.

[NathanH]

I remember getting loads of friendship points from that quest, actually.

[Althea]

I don't think it was particularly that bad, just I found it a little odd the game gave you rivalry points for trying to help her. I understand it was supposed to be awkward, but you kinda want it to make a little bit of sense.

[Lambchops]

Games tend to be more predictable when it's all laid out in front of you, and I think there's a real divide in even gamers' minds when it comes to what they want: They want unpredictable outcomes, but they want it to make sense in retrospect, yet they tend to enforce this by making developers use and reuse extraordinarily predictable tropes. They're torn between wanting a unique story to unfold before them and wanting to win a game.

Spot on. Mass Effect 2's suicide mission being a prime example of this. While i chastise Bioware for not having it be a proper suicide mission, it would have been a bit bleaker (which I wanted story wise) if I hadn't tried hard throughout to win the game (I did all that planet scanning for fuck's sake, that wasn't fun, so clearly deep down I wanted to win). So it's people like me that Bioware put that in for because they thought I wanted it. And they were kind of right. But also kind of wrong. Dragon Age 2 feels like it was written by people who understood that they were kind of wrong but as Serengoose points out quite nicely above, they just copped out of it in favour of standard nonsense. Which was a bit of a shame.

[Bhazor]

I do like the friendship/rivalry bit... [j]ust the idea that you can have a working relationship with somebody without having to explicitly agree 100% with them is pretty rare in RPGs - hell, it wasn't even present in DA:O.

Yeah that is a nice idea. Shame they didn't think of it.
http://alphaprotocol.wikia.com/wiki/Romance

[The JG Man]

because now, if they're ever suggested again, it's a quick point of the finger back to dragon age 2, and the very idea of something that isn't saving the world from an angry dragon and some orcs will be quickly dismissed, without ever seeing it properly realised.

I disagree. They know what they did wrong in DA2 and strength of characters/interactions was not one of them. You could see this, partially, reflected in ME3 with increased interactions, characters talking to each other every so often without any prompting from you. Could the whole thing be improved? Sure! At least they're on the right track.

Yeah that is a nice idea. Shame they didn't think of it.
http://alphaprotocol.wikia.com/wiki/Romance

I'm looking forward to playing AP, installed as it is, however two things to be aware of:
1. Convergent evolution. Sometimes two different parties will think up the same thing around the same time. It can happen, even if it does look a bit weird. Not necessarily saying that's what happened here.
2. Even if Bioware did ape it from them, who cares, really? It's a beneficial thing, as more people are likely to be inclined to use it which improves the standard of all things.

Either way, we win.

[Bhazor]

I'm looking forward to playing AP, installed as it is, however two things to be aware of:
1. Convergent evolution. Sometimes two different parties will think up the same thing around the same time. It can happen, even if it does look a bit weird. Not necessarily saying that's what happened here.

It isn't. It's basically the reputation system that Obsidian have been using in all their games since Kotor 2 which Bioware have been aping since Mass Effect.

2. Even if Bioware did ape it from them, who cares, really? It's a beneficial thing, as more people are likely to be inclined to use it which improves the standard of all things.

Either way, we win.

Nalano pointed it out as an achievement. It isn't. It's either a copy or just an old mechanic.

Speaking of Alpha Protocol.
That was a game that was character driven. Every character has their own motivations, every character has a role in the story that they'll pursue without you and the story simply wouldn't work if those characters were removed.

[Althea]

I just did that quest in Act 2. Y'know, the... quest with the... stuff.

*Sniffle*

[Wizardry]

Yeah that is a nice idea. Shame they didn't think of it.
http://alphaprotocol.wikia.com/wiki/Romance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishar

[archonsod]

Why doesn't Aveline, if it goes well, return some friendship points? After all, you helped her!

Because you helped her, it's a dint to her pride. All you really need to do there is offer support and let her do it her way, with the odd nudge in the right direction.

I might have misremembered but I think once they hit one extreme they are locked there forever.

It is.

It isn't. It's basically the reputation system that Obsidian have been using in all their games since Kotor 2 which Bioware have been aping since Mass Effect.

Except for it being totally different, yeah.

[Nalano]

Nalano pointed it out as an achievement. It isn't. It's either a copy or just an old mechanic.

Except done in a completely dissimilar way.

And I don't care who did it first; just that it was done. (By the way, Alpha Protocol was released May 2010. Mass Effect 2 was released January 2010 and Dragon Age 2 was released March 2011. These are all too soon to one another to have strong influences on each other's core design.)

[Althea]

Because you helped her, it's a dint to her pride. All you really need to do there is offer support and let her do it her way, with the odd nudge in the right direction.

I'll bear that in mind.

Finished Act 2 now. Some really quite strong moments in it. Definitely one of the best - if not the best - BioWare games I've played.

[boots468]

Playing through DA:O again now (and having never played Awakenings or DA2), the amount of vitriol aimed at the sequel is quite shocking to me - although the studio did produce some very good RPGs back in the day, why anyone expected a very good follow up to the first game is (currently) beyond me - the combat is repetitive and un-tactical, the NPC's crude caricatures at best and the party levelling up/inventory mechanisms trivial and tedious.

The world they've constructed has some potential, BioWare have historically been responsible for some of my favourite games, and the more focused on your actions/not just saving world from big bad evil is a commendable approach to the story, but if the posts in this thread are to go by, I guess even at less than a tenner from Amazon, this game is to be avoided?

[The JG Man]

I paid £40 (console toy) for it and I was left satisfied. For a tenner, I'd say it was worth the risk of you potentially not liking it.

[lobsterentropy]

I liked a lot of things about Dragon Age 2, but by the time I finished the game I couldn't remember what they were. Playing the game in long stretches really starts to make the game's stitching come apart. Looking back, I remember really enjoying playing Hawke- as awful as some of the "witty" options are, I actually found myself getting into playing the role of Hawke. I rather like having a sort-of-defined character who I can take in different directions instead of playing myself. I know what I'm like and would rather be someone else.