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  1. #20781
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by postinternetsyndrome View Post
    While the finale of DX did have a series of operations you had to perform, they were designed as part of a larger level, not a set piece battle where you are locked in a room with the Final Encounter.
    Potaytoe, potahtoe. The "larger level" was a few rooms connected by hallways with mooks in them, and the overall "final level" of HR also involved checking nooks and crannies to unlock a different ending. The only real difference was that, after all the forking, there was one final join. Which largely made it easier on people who were going to repeatedly re-load their saves to see all the endings anyway.
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  2. #20782
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tritagonist View Post
    Playing some Batman: Arkham City. Not really enjoying it so far. There's a lot of running around back and forth
    Stop running, start flying. You using a 360 pad?
    I'd say the 360 controls are very elegant, something you notice alot in new game plus is everything Batman has is just one press away.
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  3. #20783
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    I stopped using stealth during that part because it became a bit too frustrating for me, especially when I could just jump up on a slightly elevated platform and blast away at people without them being able to get to me. Honestly, though, a big part of my disappointment with that section had nothing to do with gameplay; it seemed like the laziest possible place for the plot to go.

    In regards to the final level, I actually preferred it to that of the original Deus Ex (which did mostly the same thing, just spread out in a way that became irritating by the end of the fight). That being said, the final level was so similar to that of the first game that it started to edge into Superman Returns territory, where it was almost-but-not-quite a remake.

  4. #20784
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Stop running, start flying. You using a 360 pad?
    I'd say the 360 controls are very elegant, something you notice alot in new game plus is everything Batman has is just one press away.
    Definitely one I'd recommend playing with a controller--and not because the keyboard controls are crappy and phoned-in either.

    Also, yes, gliding about with the grapnel boost was joyous. It was like hook-shot part of moving around in Just Cause 2 only all the time without the bits where you're just driving down the freeway. Whether that's a good or a bad thing is a matter of taste.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

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  5. #20785
    Lesser Hivemind Node postinternetsyndrome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Potaytoe, potahtoe. The "larger level" was a few rooms connected by hallways with mooks in them, and the overall "final level" of HR also involved checking nooks and crannies to unlock a different ending. The only real difference was that, after all the forking, there was one final join. Which largely made it easier on people who were going to repeatedly re-load their saves to see all the endings anyway.
    Fair enough, but we do this for the fantasy don't we? Placing you in a room with three buttons saying "ending 1, ending 2, ending 3" is just about as blatant as it gets. At least wrap it up a bit more convincingly.

  6. #20786
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by postinternetsyndrome View Post
    Fair enough, but we do this for the fantasy don't we? Placing you in a room with three buttons saying "ending 1, ending 2, ending 3" is just about as blatant as it gets. At least wrap it up a bit more convincingly.
    True. your actions during the game should define what ending you get not four buttons.

  7. #20787
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukasz View Post
    True. your actions during the game should define what ending you get not four buttons.
    Your actions DO define your ending to the extent of what Jensen's motivation is

    Anything beyond that would lead to people bitching about a disconnect or that it is too obfuscated and what not. Don't believe me? Look at Dishonored. Or even the Mass Effect games where having a team that knows how to work with you and a ready galaxy apparently has nothing to do with not getting wiped out.

    The advantage of the approach taken by HR is that it still makes your actions feel somewhat meaningful (to the extent of Jensen's monologue) while letting people reload and get whatever endings they want with ease.
    Last edited by gundato; 06-04-2014 at 03:41 PM.
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  8. #20788
    Lesser Hivemind Node Wenz's Avatar
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    Just like an ending machine you can't throw. Inevarasvavis

  9. #20789
    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Anything beyond that would lead to people bitching about a disconnect or that it is too obfuscated and what not. Don't believe me? Look at Dishonored. Or even the Mass Effect games where having a team that knows how to work with you and a ready galaxy apparently has nothing to do with not getting wiped out.
    The problem with both the chaos and loyalty systems was that they felt contrived. Did you kill no more than an arbitrary number of people/finish every sidequest? Everybody lives happily ever after/random rockets to the face won't kill your buddies.

    As for the readiness system... well, Mass Effect 3's ending had problems far beyond multiplayer grinding.

    Also, this:
    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    while letting people reload and get whatever endings they want with ease.
    ain't a good thing.

  10. #20790
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    So, Shogun: Total War 2.



    The campaign complete score showed me winning as of turn 117, which you'll note for the short campaign is 3 turns before the end. It could've ended sooner, but I needed to shore up defences which was a good thing; recently taken provinces had low public faith and revolts were inevitable, enemy clans were sending last ditch armies to take my low garrisoned fortifications (or more precisely, trying to retake what I'd just seized from them) and sudden armies appearing from somewhere needed to be fended off, but ultimately I won. The actual siege of Kyoto was an absolute breeze. My second army was completely unneeded and I lost only 500ish troops by the end of the battle, all of which were in my initial assault waves.

    So there you go, I am now the shogun of Japan.

    As for the game itself, it is absolutely a Total War game in how it plays. Some of the depth is nice, but it can also feel like a delay before you're able to get going. You could make an argument that it augments the momentum you'd have from initial army building anyhow, but at that point simply having a decent army will do enough before having to wait for "+10% ammunition in all fights", or whatever. There's a hell of a lot to keep tabs on and it's fairly easy to do so, but like all previous Total War games, I feel like negative consequences are minimal. So long as you save often, a surprise army attack can be repelled by reloading and making sure you're prepared and bad fights can be replayed until completed successfully.

    There are a few mechanical issues I still have, with the AI/pathing mostly being of issue. Fights can be excruciating waiting for hundreds of your troops to meander into position when all you've asked them to do is march forward. It can make some of the formations you build be really dumb that they don't stick to it and have to weave in and out. Then of course on the campaign map you can tell very quickly whether or not you're going to have any momentum simply based on whether or not you win your first battles, but I can't really think of a fun way to get around that.

    Whilst on the whole it's mechanically far more interesting than Medieval 2, the last TW game I played, I find myself enjoying that more. I think it's the fact that troops feel at least a little more varied in that given that different regions produce different units. There's obviously plenty of soldier variety in Shogun 2, but it can feel like many times it's the same units up against the same ones and the victor will be determined by who simply has more experience or come from a province with a unique advantage (ie. bonus armour). With M2 you do get things like crossbow men versus mounted archers versus longbows. And I'm not saying that isn't present in S2, but it's paid very little attention. Each faction in M2 feels like it is unique, whilst in S2 it's just a different colour. That is partly the point, but I don't think it makes it quite as exciting.

    Anyhow, it all makes for a great podcast game! I've listened to tons of Nerdist podcasts. So, next game up for backlog removal: Dead Space 3. I'm...not entirely excited for this one.

    EDIT: Regarding the discussion above, when I finished DE:HR I said that it was more "press button to finish game." I'm not even sure why those choices in any game are there at all.
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  11. #20791
    I'm surprised anyone would defend it, especially considering the sheer stupidity leading up to it. Zombies? An antagonist lifted straight out of a shitty JRPG? All in a cyperpunk/renaissance setting? Bleh.

    Edit: Let's not forget the final boss. What the fuck was that? I understand The Missing Link offers an explanation, but seriously, what the fuck?
    Last edited by wrestledwithgod; 06-04-2014 at 05:52 PM.

  12. #20792
    Lesser Hivemind Node Wenz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrestledwithgod View Post
    I'm surprised anyone would defend it, especially considering the sheer stupidity leading up to it. Zombies? An antagonist lifted straight out of a shitty JRPG? Ugh.
    Ehh, the hyron girl was an Icarus facet like Jensen, much like Sarif calling adam "son" and the crippled genius are to Dedalus.
    To augment the characters, you know. No pun

    Edit: Let's not forget the final boss. What the fuck was that? I understand The Missing Link offers an explanation, but seriously, what the fuck?
    Not a writer but i'd bet on mythical method applied to cyberpunk's story archetype. Also a reference to the first deus ex of sorts, not sure how the second one goes, only with more action
    Last edited by Wenz; 06-04-2014 at 06:14 PM.

  13. #20793
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrestledwithgod View Post
    Also, this:


    ain't a good thing.
    Why ever not?
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  14. #20794
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Why ever not?
    Because it renders the journey meaningless? The ending should be a natural culmination of everything you've done to bring you to that point. Not a choose your flavour of denouement toggleswitch.

  15. #20795
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Eh... Blowing everything up was fucking horrific dressed up as morality. Narked me off. I wanted blowing everything up to be a recognised as the monstrous act it was.
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  16. #20796
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Because it renders the journey meaningless? The ending should be a natural culmination of everything you've done to bring you to that point. Not a choose your flavour of denouement toggleswitch.
    Pretty much. The problem isn't end choices, it's condensing all of them into the final minutes of the game and asking the oh-so-special player exactly what resolution they want. It's contrived as fuck, and it rubs me the wrong way.

  17. #20797
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrestledwithgod View Post

    ain't a good thing.
    It is what basically everyone did with Deus Ex.

    If we are going to assume it was good level/game design back when the original came out, it still is. All HR did was avoid needing to jog back and forth across the same hallway five or six times. If the hallway is truly the important thing, they could have spread them out: Sort of like Mass Effect 3 did :p
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  18. #20798
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    A good game with divergent paths would have you come to an ending you've created through your time in playing it. Simply being able to reload the last save point and see a completely different ending that essentially negates/ignores what you've done beforehand reduces the divergent points to just one point, the ending. It's poor writing for anything establishing itself as providing alternatives throughout to make them redundant. Just because it was done in the original Deus Ex does not negate the fact that when I eventually come to play that game, I will find it as stupid as I did/do in HR.

    I'm also fairly sure the ending for Deus Ex was mercilessly mocked for having the ending it does.
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  19. #20799
    Well, God forgive me, but I've yet to play through Deus Ex. :P

    Can't really comment on its ending as such, but regardless, HR's sucked. Yo, do you agree with Darrow, Sarif, or Taggart? Well, who cares, because it's the final hour of the game and all we're going to give you is a shitty monologue over stock footage!

  20. #20800
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrestledwithgod View Post
    Well, God forgive me, but I've yet to play through Deus Ex. :P
    As someone who's currently playing through DE:HR for the first time, can we limit the spoilers please? Right now I'm skipping over whole posts in the fear that you'll ruin it for me. Thanks. :)

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