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  1. #21661
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Roaming Fortress is.... Ace but far too grindy. Units need coins, more coins than I can comfortably acquire without multiple passes. And it's often a hurried flurry of clicking. You get into a rhythm, but why can't I click and hold to fire?

    It really is cunning and beautiful though, I've finished the first map page and intend to play more.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  2. #21662
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    I guess I don't see how iterative gameplay automatically makes something a puzzle. I see Antichamber and Portal 1 and Spacechem as puzzles. Sure in Bit.Trip I have to figure out how not to die and when to press what. But it's more about practice and iteration than discovery. ME is more in the middle, but I'd say it's primarily iterative as opposed to discovered.
    Put it this way - there's a "correct" (i.e. fastest approved) path to every one of ME's levels and a way to get through that path as swiftly and efficiently as possible. If you do not jump precisely here, speed up here, slow down here etc., etc. you will not be able to do that. I'm straining the metaphor, yes, obviously it's not a puzzle as in a Sudoku board or something. But I think there's a perfectly valid criticism in there - how ME fails to pick up on how other games approach the idea of inching towards perfection. You could say a tower defence game is a puzzle - how to deal the maximum amount of damage (possibly the correct type, too) in the most efficient way with the least resources. But a game like Kingdom Rush, say, it's really easy to just play it - to slap towers down and start killing creeps - and it's frequently possible, even if you realise you're Doing It Wrong, to wrestle victory back from defeat. You could say a racing game is a puzzle - how to turn LEFT HERE, RIGHT HERE, BRAKE HERE etc. into the fastest lap possible. But even if you're doing a speed lap you've frequently got the option of going round and round and round and round forever until you've got the time you want.

    If you take the people who cheerlead for ME - they defend it on internet forums, call it terribly under-rated, rhapsodise about their favourite playthroughs, burn effigies of whoever was running EA back then :) - presumably they enjoy or enjoyed each iteration of trying to find that path and then get through it. I didn't. I did not find it at all easy to just play ME - to get the experience the trailers promised, lengthy periods of sprinting uninterrupted by any danger close or sudden, jarring obstacles. Every iteration where I did not finish the level was a painful, frustrating grind. I was not supposed to be fighting people, I was not supposed to be falling off rooftops, I was not supposed to be mis-timing slides or leaps, I was supposed to be running forever until I ran out of city. And when I finally managed to play the game the way DICE wanted, I was constantly reminded I was still too bloody slow to really satisfy them. Every time I got shot, every time I fell off the roof, every time I turned a second too late, I knew - I was utterly convinced - that I'd failed, that the rest of that run was essentially pointless. Because hell, playing the game the way DICE wanted was no fun, so presumably the only "point" was to run that critical path, and ninety-nine times out of a hundred I couldn't do it.

    Also you're doing that thing again where you're judging the motivations of the people who enjoy the game rather than simply disagreeing with them. Stop that, it's insufferable nonsense.
    Tee hee.

    Seriously, though, what were your motivations, then? How could anyone enjoy that seemingly endless succession of fatal plunges and getting shot in the back? Did you just rocket straight through to godhood or something? Because to me, the idea anyone could be doing that and having fun is... well, maybe not insufferable nonsense, but something uncomfortably near.
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  3. #21663
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Playing ME3, currently Citadel DLC.

    It's so cute and fun. Full of jokes and little things which made me smile. and good fights. Really worth whatever I paid for it.

  4. #21664
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Tee hee.

    Seriously, though, what were your motivations, then? How could anyone enjoy that seemingly endless succession of fatal plunges and getting shot in the back? Did you just rocket straight through to godhood or something? Because to me, the idea anyone could be doing that and having fun is... well, maybe not insufferable nonsense, but something uncomfortably near.
    ... well ... I can't help you when your empathic capacity is so transparently narrow.

    Besides that, If you can't have fun in games that arrest play when you fail to meet a relatively narrow path to success, you don't enjoy one of the most common forms of iterative gameplay. You might enjoy iterative games, but you don't enjoy the stop-start-stop-start-one-more-inch-this-time play ... because that's kinda predicated on failure and restarting. I get the impression you need game-arresting failure to be infrequent even if success is difficult to attain; that makes you (if correct) nicely suited to games that take place in a fixed time period during which you must accomplish a certain goal but are difficult to out-right lose before that time period. It's potentially iterative, but in a roundabout sort of way that takes some of the stressful edge off by reducing the frequency of failure. I'd be curious to know how you feel about Super Hexagon--does the rapid reset make it more palatable? What about VVVVVV with it's challenge-by-challenge check-pointing? What about Bit.Trip Runner and Bit.Trip beat?

    Bit.Trip games? You have to be WAY more precisely accurate than in Mirror's Edge. DDR? Your path is, again, even more linear than in Mirror's Edge (though not all versions fail you if you miss too many whats-its). I'm confused as to how someone with functional empathic capacity would be unable to understand how someone else could have fun with that kind of system. Mirror's Edge is, I'm guessing, in that weird place for you where it's too slow (longish refractory period on failure (both because of drawn out falling deaths and load times), combat challenges which potentially halt your momentum if you aren't good at disarming (and really, who IS good at disarming? it's ridiculously precise :P) or haven't gotten the hang of stuff like wall-run-kicks and similar tactics that can speed up a combat encounter, not a lot happening in between obstacles and a fair amount of time and space between obstacles, frequent failures that result in dead momentum rather than death) to function as an iterative game; too much space between failures for them to be properly interesting and constructive as opposed to stiffing. For me, the pacing isn't too drawn out so it works pretty much on the same principles as Bit.Trip and company.

    Again, I totally get why you might not like it, even if it's not the slowness I delineated about. What disarms me is the idea that you wouldn't understand why people enjoy it. That doesn't speak to the poor quality of the game, as you seem to imply, but merely to the narrowness of your vision.

    I enjoy the failure-reset paradigm given three conditions: 1) I feel like I make appreciable progress in either understanding or in a more literal sense at least every couple of tries. 2) I enjoy the flow of the game when I get it right. 3) Failure feels sufficiently predictable and avoidable.

    An example of a game that meets these conditions absolutely perfectly is VVVVVV. An example of a game that doesn't meet them for me is Risk of Rain. Mirror's Edge had moments I found uninteresting. It's not perfect. But I think it's very good. I think it feels fun to move in it and I felt like there was a lot of room to expand between baseline finishing the level and going back over it to get faster times.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 30-05-2014 at 05:49 AM.
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  5. #21665
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus DaftPunk's Avatar
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    Just beheaded some bandit in WItcher 1,holly cow! I miss this kind of violence in games,kinda surprising its not in games yet in Severance from 2001,there was allot of it,and it was good gore. You could cut limbs off like knife through butter.

  6. #21666
    Network Hub Ernesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaftPunk View Post
    Just beheaded some bandit in WItcher 1,holly cow! I miss this kind of violence in games,kinda surprising its not in games yet in Severance from 2001,there was allot of it,and it was good gore. You could cut limbs off like knife through butter.
    Videogames get a lot of flak in media already, so it's a good thing they don't include it more often. And frankly, I find it immature :P

  7. #21667
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaftPunk View Post
    Just beheaded some bandit in WItcher 1,holly cow! I miss this kind of violence in games,kinda surprising its not in games yet in Severance from 2001,there was allot of it,and it was good gore. You could cut limbs off like knife through butter.
    You've seen MGS:Revengenance? If not you might like it.
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  8. #21668
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    You've seen MGS:Revengenance? If not you might like it.
    there is no much gore in this game is there? dont you fight robots and cyborgs?

  9. #21669
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    No but you can cut the cyborgs limbs off and chop them up into tiny pieces in a way most games with swords don't let you do.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  10. #21670
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    No but you can cut the cyborgs limbs off and chop them up into tiny pieces in a way most games with swords don't let you do.
    true that but it's like Samurai Jack. robots are fine. it's not real violence but humans being chopped to pieces is wrong.

    We need soldier of fortune remake.

  11. #21671
    Lesser Hivemind Node Wenz's Avatar
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    About the Mirror's Edge stuff.

    The runner vision directs players everywhere while there are other elements to exploit to shortcut everything.
    It's supposed to be a game about momentum and players get the right character with the right "built in knowledge" but level design is like a puzzle one: there's a red goal, a red path and elements to exploit in the middle to make things unbearable to people who remember 2 or 3 kinda tense smooth jumps in the whole game. There's also a stage before an elevator or lift or whatever that is guarded by loads of stormtroopers that are likely to die since they just ask for it and slow the game down. Time trials are totally different
    Last edited by Wenz; 30-05-2014 at 09:55 AM.

  12. #21672
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Roaming Fortress is.... Ace but far too grindy. Units need coins, more coins than I can comfortably acquire without multiple passes. And it's often a hurried flurry of clicking. You get into a rhythm, but why can't I click and hold to fire?

    It really is cunning and beautiful though, I've finished the first map page and intend to play more.
    Ignore me, seemingly I'm casual. The easiest setting to progress the story is titled 'Casual' and gives you a little shove into unnecessary firepower, which is great for when you've gone into a level not knowing what to expect.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  13. #21673
    Network Hub TheDreamlord's Avatar
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    After putting ten hours in Saints Row IV since last weekend, my feeling went from "ha! So much fun" in the first five hours to "if I'm asked to hack one more rim jobs I will explode" for the next five hours. Probably I'll put it aside till the next time I'm in the mood for some fun nonsense, as it gets boring and repetitive very fast.

  14. #21674
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    Well, I have actually gotten SR4 to work (I created a new Steam account and used VPN to activate the American key) and I'm having a ton of fun with it. The hacking and stuff can get tiresome, yes, but the game just doesn't give a fuck. It doesn't take itself overly seriously, it simply wants you to have fun and that's what I love about it.

  15. #21675
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wenz View Post
    but level design is like a puzzle one: there's a red goal, a red path and elements to exploit in the middle to make things unbearable to people who remember 2 or 3 kinda tense smooth jumps in the whole game. There's also a stage before an elevator or lift or whatever that is guarded by loads of stormtroopers that are likely to die since they just ask for it and slow the game down. Time trials are totally different
    I really don't understand how that makes it like a puzzle. I could describe a lot of linear FPS games in exactly the same way. Maybe those are puzzles too, but I feel like the word starts to become kind of useless at that point. What does it being puzzle-like tell us about it? As far as I can tell nothing. All it has done so far is cause confusion and require clarification anyway. Not much of a useful genre descriptor for the game, then.

    A puzzle is something, I think, that requires pondering. Puzzling. It's something characterized by matching up clues to uncover the solution. By piecing the answer together. By trial and error. By logic and deduction. All games involve these elements in very minor minor ways but I really don't see how a game like Mirror's Edge can be said to put these things so much at the center of play that it is a puzzle more than an action game. It bears more resemblance to Mario than it does to Tetris. To Prince of Persia than to Portal.

    Just having trial and error at the center and having a single, linear solution does not a puzzle make. Really, if anything the presence of the red-line path makes it less of a puzzle. You're not deducting your way through the game to create a path using logic and the tools you're given, you're using your mechanical knowledge of how the character moves to carry you along a prescribed path. It's about building and then relying on intuition (and muscle memory) rather than building and relying on complete, explicit and adaptable understanding of the context. In most levels you follow an exceedingly clear path with no puzzles to solve--only techniques to pull off.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 30-05-2014 at 06:22 PM.
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  16. #21676
    Obscure Node jimitris's Avatar
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    Assassin's Creed 2. Great fun, I've had it for ages and never got round to it. Having actually visited Tuscany makes it more fun.

    I think buying a 360 pad has really changed the way I buy/play games it's a great piece of kit

  17. #21677
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus DaftPunk's Avatar
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    Just completed ACT 1 in first Witcher and it was quite fun. Don't know why people bitch about it,being boring,bad and all that.

  18. #21678
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaftPunk View Post
    Just completed ACT 1 in first Witcher and it was quite fun. Don't know why people bitch about it,being boring,bad and all that.
    Hmm, I wonder...
    Quote Originally Posted by DaftPunk View Post
    I'm playing it on easy in Witcher 1,wish there was click of button for skipping combat haha

  19. #21679
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Just started Borderlands 2, but I'm not sure I'll continue. While the gameplay is quite fun, the save system - or rather the lack thereof - is terrible. Every time I reload the game I'm back at the campsite of sorts, with every single enemy - including bosses - between me and the rest of the region respawned. Yeah, no thanks.

    So I figured I might be able to use the fast-travel option, but that just gets me into DLC areas - spoiling the end of the main storyline as it loads. Ugh.
    "He has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to
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  20. #21680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tritagonist View Post
    Just started Borderlands 2, but I'm not sure I'll continue. While the gameplay is quite fun, the save system - or rather the lack thereof - is terrible. Every time I reload the game I'm back at the campsite of sorts, with every single enemy - including bosses - between me and the rest of the region respawned. Yeah, no thanks.
    It can indeed be frustrated if you have to leave without finishing a quest or finding a new area to load, but the advantage of the respawning of enemies is that you can grind them for loot. Which is, unfortunately if you don't like this type of games, a big part of Borderlands, both the loot and the grind.

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