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  1. #17141
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sakkura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casimir Effect View Post
    And bossfights in an FPS? Really? When the fuck has that ever been fun (outside of Painkiller)?
    Doom II? :D

  2. #17142
    Network Hub alset85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnderwaterCacty View Post
    Tried Spelunky a bit, didn't really like it. This article pretty much nails the stop on why i don't like it and other similar games: http://www.digitallydownloaded.net/2...rtificial.html
    Which is why i also like Rogue Legacy.
    Wow that is a bad article and I don't think I've recently disagreed with someone about games more.

    On the comparison to Rogue Legacy: It throws at you just as much randomness as Spelunky, but it's designed so much worse, with grinding as a central mechanic to brute-force difficult encounters and death being necessary for progression. The castle stuff really feels like something out of a Newgrounds flash game.

    RL is also badly paced with flying enemies rushing you immediately when you enter a room without much time to get your bearings. As opposed to spelunky where you can and should take a bit of time, read a situation and formulate a plan. Spelunky is a lot closer to its roguelike influences where there's actual permadeath and everything gets reset. You don't get stronger by dying, other than maybe getting better at the game.
    Last edited by alset85; 10-09-2013 at 02:32 AM.
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  3. #17143
    Quote Originally Posted by alset85 View Post
    Wow that is a bad article and I don't think I've recently disagreed with someone about games more.

    On the comparison to Rogue Legacy: It throws at you just as much randomness as Spelunky, but it's designed so much worse, with grinding as a central mechanic to brute-force difficult encounters and death being necessary for progression. The castle stuff really feels like something out of a Newgrounds flash game.

    RL is also badly paced with flying enemies rushing you immediately when you enter a room without much time to get your bearings. As opposed to spelunky where you can and should take a bit of time, read a situation and formulate a plan. Spelunky is a lot closer to its roguelike influences where there's actual permadeath and everything gets reset. You don't get stronger by dying, other than maybe getting better at the game.
    I honestly don't think it's a bad written article. Pretty much nails the thing about spelunky's difficulty, since it's mostly a fake difficulty because there are times where you lose hp or die even if you played correctly, which is made just to make the game appear difficult, but it really isn't.
    To me, Spelunky is difficult just for the sake of being difficult so that you won't finish the game in 2 hours, there were a lot of times where i died not because i did something wrong, but because i just couldn't avoid some traps/enemies and took damage.
    In comparison with the souls games where if you die it's your own fault most of the time and every death teaches you something. This is also similar to Rogue Legacy since every death can also teach you, or at the very least if you die you still make progress.
    You can try and finish dark souls at level 1 (which you can) and still feel like it's fair whereas Spelunky just doesn't most of the times.

    Oh and with RL you can just wait at the entrance and see if there are any flying enemies coming at you and you can just kill 1-2, go back and come forward again if there are too many. You can take your time in RL, no one pushes you to go forward.
    In comparison in Spelunky whenever i did levels the safe way, most of the times i had the ghost appear and as such i had to run again. So in Spelunky you don't have time to play it safe, whereas in Rogue Legacy there is no such problem.

    And how can you say that Rogue Legacy is designed much worse since death is necessary for progression since Spelunky does the same thing, there are a lot of traps or stuff that you don't know what they do until you die or take damage. I'm not saying that Rogue Legacy is some epic game, but it does seem FAIR in comparison to Spelunky. If you can't kill an enemy or boss you're not powerful enough or you have to be more careful. As i have said in Spelunky there are cases where you take damage just because you couldn't avoid an enemy or a trap, in RL you never take damage unless you weren't careful.

    If it has grinding it doesn't mean it's a bad game since i didn't even have to grind the dungeon level in order to defeat it's boss, i just went at it naturally and after i finished clearing the forest i finished the first boss, then the second, after i finished the tower enemies i finished the third boss and after that i went directly to the dungeon one, didn't stop too much for the enemies there and still defeated it.
    The last boss though is very annoying and does almost the same stuff as spelunky, you don't get a fair chance since he always uses some abilities and there are times where you just can't dodge.
    Last edited by UnderwaterCacty; 10-09-2013 at 03:53 AM.

  4. #17144
    Network Hub alset85's Avatar
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    That stuff about every death teaching you is pretty much central to Spelunky's design as well as the Souls games. You were completely right about every death being your fault and is doubly true about Spelunky. But then you also get rewarded by careful resource management(ropes, bombs, money, health) and also risk management when deciding to rob a shopkeeper for a very strong boon that also makes the rest of the run potentially harder.

    Whereas the risk management in RL is only about trying for the faerie chests that won't help you in that run at all. Same with resource management being too simple in RL with only health and mana.

    Also juggling rooms to reset enemies in RL is really jarring and gamey. That is very old school platformer design that needs to go.
    Last edited by alset85; 10-09-2013 at 04:20 AM.
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  5. #17145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casimir Effect View Post
    And bossfights in an FPS? Really? When the fuck has that ever been fun (outside of Painkiller)? Enemies with disproportionate amounts of health are bad enough; ones that can only be fought in a specific way which plays out over at least several minutes where the slightest error means starting again are the worst.
    Doom 2
    Serious Sam - all of them
    Bioshock
    Borderlands 1/2
    Halo 3 - dem scarabs
    Metroid Prime series
    Jedi Knight series
    Dishonoured
    HL2: Episode 2

    I think FPS games do all right with boss fights. Portal 1/2 are a grey area, can they even be called boss fights?

  6. #17146
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khaz View Post
    Bioshock
    Fighting Fontaine? That was terrible.

    Dishonoured
    You mean Daud? That's technically true, maybe, but fighting him is completely optional.

    HL2: Episode 2
    Um, what? The missile defense at the end of Episode 2 was epic, but you weren't fighting a boss, just a whole bunch of striders and hunters.

    I think FPS games do all right with boss fights. Portal 1/2 are a grey area, can they even be called boss fights?
    Sure, because they're a bigger, self-contained challenge (as in, just one boss, not a horde of tough enemies) within the context of normal gameplay. It's not unusual for puzzle games to have boss fights; Spacechem has them as well.

  7. #17147
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sonson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casimir Effect View Post
    So does Syndicate. I'm playing it right now and it has great graphics, great visuals, great sound, decent AI and some decent FPS mechanics. But none of it comes together well and then the icing on the cake is shitty bossfights. The bossfights so far have reminded me of Riddick in that you're suddenly in a small area where not getting shot isn't an option. And bossfights in an FPS? Really? When the fuck has that ever been fun (outside of Painkiller)? Enemies with disproportionate amounts of health are bad enough; ones that can only be fought in a specific way which plays out over at least several minutes where the slightest error means starting again are the worst.
    I hate FPS boss fights, they basically subvert the entire logic of their context in order to just “have a boss”.

    Headshots stop counting, as does targeted fire in general, it just becomes a rapid fire exercise. Similarly there is usually something to negate the efficacy of a weapon which earlier on was more powerful than a standard sidearm. Manoeuvrability tends to be really important to these encounters yet compared to earlier on in the level, comparatively very restricted at the same time. So it requires all the effort of a dynamic approach but with less of the payback than was the case before, even though the stakes are higher. There is next to no room for a creative approach to the scenario as there probably was earlier on in the non-boss section. You tend to only be fighting one dude, whereas before you would be fighting several, but on account of fighting one dude being easier than several there is some bullshit mechanic which either allows Mr Bossman to still fire from all angles, except this time you can't stop the shots coming in from all angles as you can when it's a guy shooting you who you can kill, or alternatively he can just call in a bunch of cannon fodder anyhow. He also has this one attack pattern which can kill you instantly, because he’s a boss, even though it’s just something like knocking you over, whereas you can happily eat bullets without needing to hit any medical supplies whatsoever. Because the mechanics are limited, as compared to the more simulated rules the AI in general might follow, there is usually a way to cheese the encounter by standing in a corner or something. So if you don’t win by following the less-fun-than-the-rest-of-the-game-without-any narrative-explanation-bullshit approach required then you win instead by exploiting a crappy flaw, and either way you’re just happy to see the end of it and to get back to the game you were previously enjoying before the fucking boss fight.

    The Saints Row IV Guardians are an excellent counterpoint to all this shit. They are far harder enemies to beat than their other AI buddies, but on account of them being stronger, not on account of you being limited. You can still use whatever you have at your disposal-Superpowers, guns, scenery, whatever-to defeat them, it just requires a quicker and more sophisticated grasp of them than defeating a grunt does. And it feels epic as a result, leaping after them from roof to roof, catching a thrown car with your eyes, that sort of thing.

  8. #17148
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
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  9. #17149
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  10. #17150
    Hey guys anyone tried this mod for xcom? http://xcom.nexusmods.com/mods/18/?t...user%3D1&pUp=1
    Or can you tell me a strategy or tbs game that is not too complicated? (is EU 4 good for that?)

  11. #17151
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Civ V on Prince or lower is a very enjoyable and not at all complicated strategy/turn based game. I suggest that difficultly just because it allows you to get to grips with the game while the NPC players just kind of play easy.

    Make sure to get Civ V with Brave New World and Gods and Kings. There's a discounted bundle over on greenmangaming at the moment.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  12. #17152
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sakkura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnderwaterCacty View Post
    Hey guys anyone tried this mod for xcom? http://xcom.nexusmods.com/mods/18/?t...user%3D1&pUp=1
    Or can you tell me a strategy or tbs game that is not too complicated? (is EU 4 good for that?)
    EU 4 is kinda complicated. It's great, but even though it's more accessible than its predecessor, there's still a lot going on. And not everything is explained well by the UI (even though it's significantly improved in that area).

  13. #17153
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnderwaterCacty View Post
    Hey guys anyone tried this mod for xcom? http://xcom.nexusmods.com/mods/18/?t...user%3D1&pUp=1
    Or can you tell me a strategy or tbs game that is not too complicated? (is EU 4 good for that?)
    As mentioned, the Civ games (or, my preference, Stardock's Galactic Civilizations 2) are really good for being very accessible but having a large degree of depth.

    As far as squad-based TBS (like xcom), I am partial to Shadowrun Returns. It has the same bullshit gameplay as new-XCOM, but it is varied enough that I didn't get as annoyed. It is still shit (combat wise) compared to something like Silent Storm, but it is tolerable. And I actually really like the plot/story/setting, but that is VERY subjective.
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  14. #17154
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Faldrath's Avatar
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    I've always found GalCiv too dry. If you want an accessible space strategy game these days, Endless Space is probably a better choice - great UI, reasonably easy to learn. But yeah, Civ 5 is still the best option.

    Although if you really, really, really want to get into Paradox's grand strategy titles, EU4 is undoubtedly the easiest one to grasp.

    As for squad based games, I'd actually recommend Silent Storm, now that it's easy to find. Still the best game of its kind that I know (until the Panzerkleins show up).

  15. #17155
    I have another small question if there's no problem, how's a machine for pigs compared to dark descent? is it still as dark? I tried to play the first one but i couldn't reach too far because it was just too dark i couldn't see anything. Mostly because of my screen. Also it was a bit too stressful and i didn't really have enough time at night to play it and it wasn't worth it during the day because the atmosphere was gone.

  16. #17156
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Casimir Effect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khaz View Post
    Doom 2
    Serious Sam - all of them
    Borderlands 1/2
    Halo 3 - dem scarabs
    Metroid Prime series
    Jedi Knight series

    I think FPS games do all right with boss fights. Portal 1/2 are a grey area, can they even be called boss fights?
    To add to the ones LTK handled (of which I've only played HL2:EP2):
    Borderlands 1/2 - only fun part here is the introductions. The bosses themselves are bulletsponges who require either A) Slowly getting closer to while trying not to get shot too much or B) kiting round an arena, avoiding melee attacks or hiding to regen shield where appropriate. Hell, the final boss of Borderlands 1 has had the piss taken out of it for being shit since the game came out.

    Halo 3 - Scarab 1 was fun; double scarab at the end: "What's that, you lost your vehicle? Well fuck you then". And Halo 3, lest we forget, also had the Guilty Spark fight. (don't forget asshole with hammer in Halo 2 either).

    Jedi Knight - half of these are third person or have it as an option. Either way, never really played this or Metroid.

    Doom 2/Serious Sam - same as Painkiller but with more bunny hopping, fewer-if-any stages, and a greater reliance on memorization of pickups required (speaking from ancient memory here).

    To provide some counter-examples:
    Rainbow Six Vegas 2 helicopter boss fight - what a realistic shooter always needed.
    Deus Ex: HR - game not really an FPS but the bosses definitely are.
    Crysis giant alien on an aircraft carrier - nice spectacle, dull sequence
    Crysis Warhead angy alien airfield alliteration - get the magic gun that is the only things that can kill it from the convenient box.
    Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay X-to-the-Z beatdown - fight Xzibit in a tiny room where stealth isn't possible.
    Unreal 2 - giant spider shoot the convenient barrels

    and Syndicate, which has just pulled the classic "Hey we're going to make the game more fun by introducing something that removes the abilities that made the game fun..." both in a boss fight and the normal game.

  17. #17157
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus neema_t's Avatar
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    Yeah, I wouldn't personally count Borderlands 1/2 as boss fights done right. For the most part you treat them like any other enemy except you get better loot. Maybe the reason they're seen as 'good' is because they have a 1 in a billion chance to drop something awesome?

  18. #17158
    Lesser Hivemind Node TheDreamlord's Avatar
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    I spent a couple of hours with La Mulana and I quite like it. I tried Spelunky and it wasn't really for me, but La Mulana is interesting and does not seem unfairly difficult (platforming-wise, the puzzles are insane).

    Also playing Metro Last Light which so far is good. Not great, but very atmospheric and the shooting is satisfying. The hand holding over, curious to see how much it opens up.

  19. #17159
    More America's Army: Proving Grounds Beta. God, this game is great. I was playing in a 12 vs 12 server, and we ended up playing 2 vs 2. Lots of tactics and distractions involved, joking through the voice chat, and, well, a really good time, in general.

    I've also been playing Disciples II and it reminds me pretty much of Fable, just a bit more open. I'm entering the Battle Tower now, and while the combat is entertaining, requiring more than "click to attack", the conversations and decisions are pretty nice too.

  20. #17160
    Obscure Node
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    mostly skyrim and swtor. I just love the way both of those immerse you into the stories. It's absolutely wonderful

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