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  1. #18201
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    Yes, this. My first impressions of Godhand were that it was awful, because any fighting game should basically allow you to easily hit people in the face inside thirty seconds and feel like the king of the world, and you shouldn't have to worry about how to accomplish this. At the very least if you're being asked to press buttons in some radically different way that goes against everything other games have taught you it should be immediately obvious what advantages having to learn an entirely new system offers or will ultimately offer.

    Godhand flat out does not do this, end of discussion. The combat in Warner's Batman games can indeed feel like a formality for experienced players but it lets everyone else get started almost painlessly and it does offer more of a challenge or scope for experimentation and showboating as the game progresses, or by tweaking a couple of options. This may not be to your individual taste, but it is unquestionably technically better, more efficient game design.
    Oh, definitely agree that batman has better game design. Godhand was pretty shit in terms of progression and teaching the game. But once you persevere and read lots of documentation, it is great.

    ... So it is basically dwarf fortress
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  2. #18202
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Oh, definitely agree that batman has better game design. Godhand was pretty shit in terms of progression and teaching the game. But once you persevere and read lots of documentation, it is great.

    ... So it is basically dwarf fortress
    Ahahaha, Christ, I know it's an easy joke to make but for some reason I am laughing so hard at that comparison right now. The idea of all the standard DF arguments back and forth being applied to a fighting game, I suppose.

    Obviously I was being just a tiny bit facetious - I've watched videos and read people's impressions of Godhand, I can see why it attracted this fervent little niche of fans. But I don't for one moment agree it's the unjustly ignored classic they think it is. Then again I can see why people want to play Dwarf Fortress with ASCII graphics and keyboard shortcuts, but at the same time I would insist that on some level this is objectively bad design (intimidating, unintuitive, overly complex) and one reason the game doesn't deserve mainstream acceptance. So, y'know, opinions and such.

  3. #18203
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    Ahahaha, Christ, I know it's an easy joke to make but for some reason I am laughing so hard at that comparison right now. The idea of all the standard DF arguments back and forth being applied to a fighting game, I suppose.

    Obviously I was being just a tiny bit facetious - I've watched videos and read people's impressions of Godhand, I can see why it attracted this fervent little niche of fans. But I don't for one moment agree it's the unjustly ignored classic they think it is. Then again I can see why people want to play Dwarf Fortress with ASCII graphics and keyboard shortcuts, but at the same time I would insist that on some level this is objectively bad design (intimidating, unintuitive, overly complex) and one reason the game doesn't deserve mainstream acceptance. So, y'know, opinions and such.
    I think that in terms of "the grand scheme of gaming", it deserves a lot of credit for the current trend of "Difficult, but fair" games.

    And I think it still sets the gold standard for what a "martial arts" game can be. You can spec yourself out for group tactics or for 1v1 fighting, and you need to stay focused and constantly aware of your surroundings. That being said, I also think it should only be employed in games where the entire focus IS combat. The reason that Batman and AssCreed use a system like this is that it lets you feel like a badass while still letting you focus on the other aspects of the gameplay.

    As mentioned, Sleeping Dogs is weird. It works, but I think it also makes the game fail in the 1on1 fights. In group combat, it is amazing. 1on1, it feels clunky.
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  4. #18204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    Ahahaha, Christ, I know it's an easy joke to make but for some reason I am laughing so hard at that comparison right now. The idea of all the standard DF arguments back and forth being applied to a fighting game, I suppose.
    As a passing mental exercise, there's plenty of overlap in the progression structure and attitude of their respective communities. Games that are constructed of systems based on systems, with each layer being more subtle than the one above it, to allow increasing refinement as mastery grows. A deliberateness about making anything past the basics really hard to do, and then neglecting to document what those things even are. A reliance on communities to teach newcomers, with all the requisite barriers to access.

    That applies to DF as much as Street Fighter, I think.

  5. #18205
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    Quote Originally Posted by arathain View Post
    As a passing mental exercise, there's plenty of overlap in the progression structure and attitude of their respective communities. Games that are constructed of systems based on systems, with each layer being more subtle than the one above it, to allow increasing refinement as mastery grows. A deliberateness about making anything past the basics really hard to do, and then neglecting to document what those things even are. A reliance on communities to teach newcomers, with all the requisite barriers to access.

    That applies to DF as much as Street Fighter, I think.
    There's definitely some truth in that, but I think it's far easier to fire up (for example) King of Fighters, turn the difficulty to the easiest setting and breeze through arcade mode while having fun (well, maybe until you reach whichever boss it is in whatever KoF you picked). There's far less potential, as with DF, for a newcomer to trip at the first hurdle because they simply take one look and think "Oh dear Lord, what the hell is that?". One of my favourite gaming memories ever is the day I bought a Dreamcast and took it back to the shared house I lived in, and got to watch my housemates - who did not commonly play videogames, full stop - fall in love with Soul Calibur.

    I'd never seen people actually learning how videogames worked before, and not over hours or days but literally in minutes. Sure, had I known how complicated fighting games can get back then I could have put them off for life, but seeing them engage with the whole process of going from "AHAHAHA I PRESS BUTTENZ AN HIT PEEPL" to "Oh, wow, I see, if I hit this particular button, he always does this" and beyond, right before my eyes - even learning basic combos! - was absolutely magical. Dwarf Fortress simply doesn't have that. Definitely not in that same timescale and with so little mental gymnastics. I'm aware that's the creator's intention, and obviously I know it has its own magic that fighting games can't live up to, but I don't really think that kind of barrier to entry is ever good design.

    EDIT: This is probably kind of a dumb tangent to go off on from an observation about Batman Oranges et al. Sorry, thread.
    Last edited by Eight Rooks; 07-11-2013 at 06:03 PM.

  6. #18206
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trelow View Post
    Johnny-bought-a-car!

    I ended up using the same strategy on him, man he's rude.
    I discovered this exact same strategy (which was much easier with Liu Kang than Raiden) but I ended up giving up and going to bed because my hand was too tired to pull off the teleport>torpedo combo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    Name some.
    Streets of Rage 2. Oni. Demon's Souls. Yakuza. Devil May Cry. Ninja Gaiden Black. Bayonetta. Viewtiful Joe.
    Last edited by sabrage; 07-11-2013 at 06:53 PM.

  7. #18207
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabrage View Post
    Streets of Rage 2. Oni. Demon's Souls. Yakuza. Devil May Cry. Ninja Gaiden Black. Bayonetta. Viewtiful Joe.
    2D fighting is not suitable for/has no viable applications in a 3D environment, so we can throw those out of the window. Oni I have very few memories of and most of them involve it being kinda dull. Demon's Souls is great, and a better combat system in many respects, but it's far too slow and careful for Rocksteady to be taking pointers from - there's a reason you don't have thirty-man brawls in that game. Yakuza had a good combat system - has, even: my God, I'm going to miss those games, not owning a console - and various games in the franchise have moments in them that Rocksteady/Warner have never and probably will never equal - lining up the various sword specials in Kenzan was amazing. But the lock-on system was terrible and it was far too easy to just spam the same few moves over and over; it's certainly not automatically the superior choice.

    You could certainly say the various highly technical action games are better in that they offer far more scope for elaborate show-boating and application of technique, but there's definitely a case to be made that you can have too many options. I never did finish Bayonetta because while I can completely understand why Edge gave it a 10, I stopped, left it for a while and then every time I went back simply couldn't face learning the intricacies of the combat all over again. (One reason I vastly preferred Vanquish was because it was an amazing game even if you simply played it as a campy Gears of War knockoff and ignored bullet time, and I didn't feel I was playing it wrong by not using every tool at my disposal.)

    I suspect you're basically just someone who really doesn't like having anything simplified for you, which is fine up to a point, but developers have to cast their net a little wider.

  8. #18208
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    With Liu Kang I just low fireballed like a madman​.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabrage View Post
    I discovered this exact same strategy (which was much easier with Liu Kang than Raiden) but I ended up giving up and going to bed because my hand was too tired to pull off the teleport>torpedo combo.


    Streets of Rage 2. Oni. Demon's Souls. Yakuza. Devil May Cry. Ninja Gaiden Black. Bayonetta. Viewtiful Joe.

  9. #18209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    There's definitely some truth in that, but I think it's far easier to fire up (for example) King of Fighters, turn the difficulty to the easiest setting and breeze through arcade mode while having fun (well, maybe until you reach whichever boss it is in whatever KoF you picked). There's far less potential, as with DF, for a newcomer to trip at the first hurdle because they simply take one look and think "Oh dear Lord, what the hell is that?". One of my favourite gaming memories ever is the day I bought a Dreamcast and took it back to the shared house I lived in, and got to watch my housemates - who did not commonly play videogames, full stop - fall in love with Soul Calibur.

    I'd never seen people actually learning how videogames worked before, and not over hours or days but literally in minutes. Sure, had I known how complicated fighting games can get back then I could have put them off for life, but seeing them engage with the whole process of going from "AHAHAHA I PRESS BUTTENZ AN HIT PEEPL" to "Oh, wow, I see, if I hit this particular button, he always does this" and beyond, right before my eyes - even learning basic combos! - was absolutely magical. Dwarf Fortress simply doesn't have that. Definitely not in that same timescale and with so little mental gymnastics. I'm aware that's the creator's intention, and obviously I know it has its own magic that fighting games can't live up to, but I don't really think that kind of barrier to entry is ever good design.

    EDIT: This is probably kind of a dumb tangent to go off on from an observation about Batman Oranges et al. Sorry, thread.
    Sure, the analogy breaks down on detailed examination, as do all analogies. It's just a way of thinking about certain hardcore games and genres that interests me.

    Soul Caliber is a really interesting one. It's such a button-mashing friendly game. Want to randomly hit buttons? Sure, why not? We'll have your character look amazing doing it. I think any novice should be able to pick up an SC game and have a great time with it. You can dive as deeply into the mechanics as you ever feel like, and there's plenty to learn if you want to get really good.

  10. #18210
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus alms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maknol View Post
    Or, and this is my favorite, hold them helplessly in the air as your companion shoots an icy arrow that freezes them solid, then you drop that living block of ice to the ground and savor watching the precious seconds as they fall and their eyes fill with terror upon realizing the imminent transformation into a pile of dead, bloody, cold body parts.
    You, sir, have watched way too many WB cartoons.

    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    You don't get THAT in a Class 47 - well, except where you brake that coal train from 90 to 50.9 MPH JUST as you pass the 50 limit sign (flicking the power back on to keep it that way) ;)
    I kind of hate the Class 47. It was the first engine I spent time with in TS and as soon as I began driving the better trains, I've always felt some sort of discomfort at the simple thought of going back to it - I should though, if I want to rake in a few more totally useless XPs, the US scenarios I have have either horribly complex signaling or terribly slow trains. Pity, the AEM-7 is pretty cool.

    FTR I finally got a gold on that Oxford Bound scenario, which I don't like since the Class 166 is both underpowered and underbraked and the timetable is so tight you have to pinpoint the brake point where you go from full <ough>power to full braking. The best part is when you leave the main line and head towards Appleford, there doesn't seem to be a way to avoid getting a timeliness penalty. I got third place by being 13 seconds late, while the top spot has only 6.

    As for the rest, I'm afraid my Transport Tycoon Deluxe addiction is coming back, now that I've figured out some of the intricacies that have been introduced with OpenTTD. The Path's a strange one: my first playthrough left me totally wowed, I keep saying to myself "you should play more of it", yet the idea makes me uneasy. I'm not sure there's another game I liked that gave me that kind of feeling.
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  11. #18211
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    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    The Path's a strange one: my first playthrough left me totally wowed, I keep saying to myself "you should play more of it", yet the idea makes me uneasy. I'm not sure there's another game I liked that gave me that kind of feeling.
    Now that's going back a bit. He's playing a rape simulator! Burn him!

    But yes, to be serious, I can totally agree. Well, there may have been other games, but while I thought The Path was fantastic it certainly didn't have me desperate to finish every variation on the story. Once was very nearly disturbing enough.

  12. #18212
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Played a bit more multiplayer BF4 earlier. Fun fun fun.

    And after watching the season finale of RWBY, I will probably be taking Sony/Konami up on the free Metal Gear Rising DLC this weekend.

    Also: FUCK YOU UBISOFT! FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU!! FUCK A DUCK!!!! THe game freaking booted up and was playable last night, and now it is downloading yet another massive fucking patch. YARGH!!!!!!!!!!
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  13. #18213
    Lesser Hivemind Node eRa's Avatar
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    Crusader Kings 2: The remnants of the puny Seljuk horde just got conquered by my homosexual, minor, Zoroastrian duke.

  14. #18214
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    I suspect you're basically just someone who really doesn't like having anything simplified for you, which is fine up to a point, but developers have to cast their net a little wider.
    I wouldn't put it like that. I have the same problem as you do with games like Dwarf Fortress and difficult control schemes. Gunvalkyrie and King's Field are two examples of games I'd love to play, but simply can't for, like you said, crimes against the dual analog. Then there's Knights in the Nightmare... I do, however, enjoy a very particular type of difficulty. I don't think I'm particularly good at games, but the ones I end up beating are almost invariably the ones that reduce me to tears. Just glancing at my backloggery, the last ones I've finished were Heretic, The Darkness 2, Paranautical Activity, Rogue Legacy, Hotline Miami, Serious Sam: The First Encounter, and fucking Dark Souls to give you some sort of idea. I'll butt my head up against the same piece of shit boss (e.g. Shao Kahn) for hours on end before I'll sit through a mindless tutorial for even one. I acknowledge that's not everyone's cup of tea, but the auto-pilot combat in Batman is almost insulting.
    Last edited by sabrage; 08-11-2013 at 04:47 AM.

  15. #18215
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    Hey! Knights in the Nightmare is brilliant! :(

    Agreed on Gun Valkyrie, whoever decided the left stick press is to be the jet pack must have been smoking some heinous shit. But if you got to play through a level as the developers intended, the game was a joy - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVmjZ5kRYt0 - to behold. Fucking Sega...

    I'll agree that Batman's combat system is simplified but I like the rhythmic nature of its system. I only ever play the Batman games on hard so timing counters and knowing what move to use against the various goons is only based on past experience and visual input from the game so at least Rocksteady don't compromise on that. What you haven't mentioned however Sabrage is that all those games you mentioned - most of which I love, especially NGB - could learn from Rocksteady's camera control and their sense of flow and pacing, Tecmo in particular.

    And i'd like to add that from point of view, Viewtiful Joe was clearly a huge influence on Rocksteady. That sense of timing and precision is rare in games and its good to see two very different games apply it in their own way.
    Last edited by khaz; 08-11-2013 at 05:02 AM.

  16. #18216
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khaz View Post
    Hey! Knights in the Nightmare is brilliant! :(
    I have yet to even insert the game for the horror that was Yggdra Union's tutorials. And I made it through those. And I still don't know how to play the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by khaz View Post
    What you haven't mentioned however Sabrage is that all those games you mentioned - most of which I love, especially NGB - could learn from Rocksteady's camera control and their sense of flow and pacing, Tecmo in particular.
    I haven't said much about Batman's better qualities at all, but I really wouldn't be playing if they hadn't knocked so many things out of the park. I did make it all the way through Asylum, and the combat was measurably worse in that. I feel much the same way about the combat as I do about "Detective Vision," though.
    Last edited by sabrage; 08-11-2013 at 05:03 AM.

  17. #18217
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    Sting learned the hard way from Yggdra Union. The tutorials in Knights are outstanding. Its practically a game in itself. Once you understand that Sting built further on Yggdra's indirect control methods and added a bullet hell shooter shooter as a control mechanism (don't ask, just play) the game's mechanics will fall into place like dominos after that. Just keep banging away till you get it. It is by a considerable distance Sting's most mechanically ambitious game. Big chunky norse/European folklore inspired storyline too, much more in depth than their previous efforts.

    Have a go and ask away if you have questions. I haven't played in a while but my DSL is right next to me so I can load up my game and reacquaint myself quick.
    Last edited by khaz; 08-11-2013 at 05:09 AM.

  18. #18218
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khaz View Post
    Sting learned the hard way from Yggdra Union. The tutorials in Knights are outstanding. Its practically a game in itself. Once you understand that Sting built further on Yggdra's indirect control methods and added a bullet hell shooter shooter as a control mechanism (don't ask, just play) the game's mechanics will fall into place like dominos after that. Just keep banging away till you get it. It is by a considerable distance Sting's most mechanically ambitious game. Big chunky norse/European folklore inspired storyline too, much more in depth than their previous efforts.

    Have a go and ask away if you have questions. I haven't played in a while but my DSL is right next to me so I can load up my game and reacquaint myself quick.
    OK, OK, I'll try it... soon... But should I play my PSP version or do I really owe it to myself to load it on my DS's flash cart?

  19. #18219
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    I much prefer the DS version because of the touch screen controls making the bullet dodging aspect more intuitive and allowing your primary hand to rest when managing your units and inventory as you ponder what decisions to make. For people like me, their management menu is a glorious graph based system that makes perfect sense. That aside, this review - http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/Knight...Nightmare_PSP/ - is quite in depth and informative so you can base your decision on that.

    The biggest problem people apparently had was that the tutorials in the DS version were entirely seperate from the main game. I thought this was excellent actually but clearly not many think like me. The PSP version incorporated some of the more basic tutorial levels into the story but you still have to access the tutorial section from the menu for the more advanced mechanics.

  20. #18220
    Lesser Hivemind Node Drayk's Avatar
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    Again, not much gaming time lately (God I hate my life when it keeps me away from my favourite hobby).

    Playing POE, I really like it, it clicks with me so far. I already feel the need to reroll but i'll fight it. I should be halfway through the game.

    Finished Jak and Daxter: precursor's legacy one the vita. I hated the last fortress but it was because I totally forgot you could make longer, more controled jumps with the rotating attack... I started the second one Jak II, the main hub lags badly, but the game is really beautiful and animations are smooth.

    Slowly progressing in Stealth Inc. (again on the vita, I can only play in PT lately) That's a game I like. The puzzles are smart but not impossible and the controls are tight. The setting is excellent. It's a really good mix of mark of the ninja, Splinter cell and Portal.
    Last edited by Drayk; 08-11-2013 at 09:52 AM.

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